01:00:47am, Tuesday, April 30, 2024
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Case A pump timing and rpm
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I have an 1175 with a stock 451, 3lm turbo, and 10mm pump, stock injectors as far as I know. For starters how are guys setting the timing without a timing light? And if I get the pump and injectors reworked how much fuel have guys had success with running in a 451? I haven't heard of many guys keeping the 451 and pulling them but Id like to see what it will do since it seems to run decent. Finally got a hook on it yesterday and barely smoked and spun out 5th gear. Low tread 20.8 Firestones on it. Thanks in advance, I've gotten lots of info from the search bar here but can't find much on 451 fuel and case timing with no light |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Also can I change full speed rpms or does that need to be done when pump gets redone? |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Ok thank you guys. Fuel screw is in all the way and rack screw and shims are removed. Planning on sending pump and injectors in this fall. FVP says they build this pump with external fuel adjust to 370cc, to get more I'll have to go to a Deere pump. They will rework injectors to 4x.020 or 4x.022. Would anyone suggest going to .093 lines? I've heard yes and no. Hoping to hook again in a couple of weeks and see how it likes 6th gear in 10,500 or 11,000 farm. Big change for me from pulling 2cyl deeres |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Registered: 11/14/2017 Posts: 80 |
I don't think you'll need the bigger lines at 370 cc's. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Registered: 11/14/2017 Posts: 80 |
There should be timing marks on the harmonic balancer and a pointer on the timing cover to set static timing. Take the plug out of the timing cover by the pump and roll the engine over until the marks line up on the pump and then check the timing mark on the balancer. Adjust the throttle stop on the pump to increase rpm. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/13/2021 02:28AM by DK Case. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Help
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Most do away with the 451 because the crank isn’t the greatest and unless you put 504 heads on it (which don’t work super well but it can be done) then you have to run the not so great pencil injectors. As stated by DK Case that is how you check timing and alter rpm. Turn the fuel up all the way and make sure you remove the shims on the end of the rack. First step would be bigger injectors IMO. Most to all the information you find is relative between the 401,451, and 504. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Ok thanks guys I appreciate the help. The timing seems a bit advanced right now but I'll pull the plug off and see where it's at. I think the pump is maxed out on the adjustment slots currently. Pulling the top of the pump away from the engine is advancing correct? |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Put 1370 injectors in it. Do not put 93 lines on that small pump.You will lose about 40 hp.Stock timing on that engine 31 degrees.Bump it up to 35 degrees. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Registered: 07/09/2020 Posts: 9 |
Can someone explain why larger diameter injection lines would cause a loss in HP? |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
More volume for the pump to fill up instead of pushing it into the injector and the engine. Slows the velocity down. An exaggeration, but think what the pressure would be if you hooked a fire hose to the bib on your house to water the lawn. It would just dribble out instead of making a stream.
CP |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Georgee
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too big the fuel rolls and stumbles, instead of being pushed like a solid stream |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Thank you everyone for the replies. Glad to hear I won't need the bigger lines to keep the cost down some. 2 weeks till the next pull I can make it to and see what the 451 can do. I don't expect to win but would like to compete with something other than red or green. Factory draw bar isn't helping me out any either. Thanks again! |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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After adjusting idle and bumper spring correctly I got the timing set to 35°. Then I tackled my rpm issue. Found the froze up foot throttle was stopping the linkage from full travel and got it up a bit higher after freeing that up. But the factory cable doesn't have enough travel to get to the throttle stop. I have to use the foot throttle currently if I want over 2350. At 2500 on the tach it sure sounds like it's closer to 3000 than 2500, not sure how accurate these old cable driven tachs are. Thanks again everyone, it definitely has more power with these new adjustments. Taking off in road gear it'll go to around 21lbs of boost. Before it was around 10lbs of boost |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Went and got one hook on it in 11,000 farm 10mph. Long story short I had to stay off foot throttle till the end of the pull in 6th gear. When I hit the foot throttle it took off like expected but then soon fell on it's face like it was fuel starved. So the turbo unwound and I was done, didn't kill it and didn't take last place. No biggie, get off the track and the compressor wheel nut had backed off and the wheel tried to eat it. About 2 hours on that turbo. I'm guessing something was wrong with the turbo to make it stop fast enough to back the nut off. Now new turbo, (same aftermarket brand since you can't get a bw these days) and we'll see what happens Friday. Going to check fuel flow at pump and possibly remove screen in the tank. Fuel filters have about 10 hrs on them. Also is it a good idea to bypass the factory hand primer? Just thinking of where my fuel restrictions could be thanks. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Help
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Ditch the hand primer/pump and get a good electric one. An airdog raptor is a fairly inexpensive pump that will do your application just fine, if your planning on giving it more fuel get a fass without the filters and run a single filter. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Registered: 11/14/2017 Posts: 80 |
The nut on a 3LM will work loose when it's working hard, you need to use red locktite on the nut or it will keep spinning loose. Some shops will pin the wheel to prevent it from coming loose and the nut doesn't have to be overtightened. Also don't expect them to last too long if your exhaust pressure and boost pressure aren't fairly close to each other, if they're not it will wear the thrust plate out. The thrust plate can be modified to get more oil to it to help the turbo live longer but it won't be forever. If your class allows pusher pumps, get the AirDog Raptor Universal like Help mentioned. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Ok thanks. I'm guessing it isn't very fun trying to get a larger supply line plumbed into these fuel tanks without leaks. Is there a plate that is sold to delete the factory hand pump? Or I suppose the pump shop will have one when I send this in this winter |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Help
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If you went in from the top and had a piece of pipe for a fuel pickup you wouldn’t have to worry about leaking as much as the bottom. Shouldn’t be an issue for the electric fuel pump pulling fuel up opposed to gravity supply. Yes any pump shop, you might even be able to remove the guts on the hand pump so it’s not riding the cam anymore but still on there covering the hole? |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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That's probably what I'll have to do and get the factory bung plugged. Hopefully I can get this to flow enough fuel with the stock pump for the rest of the year if the turbo holds up as well. Friends of mine have been running their 3lms for years with more fuel on 466s with no issues at all. Maybe a small s300 would be a better option when pump gets redone as long as I can keep it lit. Or have a reputable shop build this aftermarket 3lm. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Registered: 11/14/2017 Posts: 80 |
If you don't have to run the 3LM, get the S300. You can get a 5 gallon aluminum fuel cell off ebay for around $65 w/ bigger fittings, take the filler cap off and pull the foam block out of it. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/13/2021 02:09AM by DK Case. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Well another aftermarket 3lm blew up on 2nd hook tonight. And it was leaking oil out the exhaust side after the 1st hook. I can't believe it, I'm not running 3k rpms and I have a stock 10mm pump that's turned up, nothing crazy by any means. Ran 5th gear in 13,000 since it wasn't getting enough fuel in 6th in 11,000 (lift pump must be bad, checked flow to pump this morning and had full flow so decided to see how it would go in 5th since I paid for both hooks anyhow) started making boost and pow. Do I just go all out and get an s300 and send pump and injectors out? Send this aftermarket core out to get built? Can a guy compete with a t04? I still have my core t04, can they be reworked to be close to a 3lm? Can't get a BW 3lm anywhere. I don't wanna go too crazy, I'd like to stay farm stock so I'd like to stick with a 3lm on it instead of an s300. But pulling against hotfarm 66 series guys tonight makes me wanna go all out too. Thanks again guys for the help! |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Help
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What size is your oil feed line to the turbo? What about the drain? Sounds like you’ve got an issue there. t04’s are junk. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Oil feed is the factory line, must be 3/8 or so hard line. It's a stock tractor, factory drain, that's about a 3/4. No flame out stack. First hook and same with a couple weeks ago when other turbo went, everything is going good, running about 25-2600 rpms going down the track, at about 200ft or so it's like you pulled the throttle back, and it seems the factory little lift pumps are prone to going out, that's why I thinks it's starving for fuel. 5th gear pull it didn't do that. Did it both times I tried 6th. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Registered: 08/14/2013 Posts: 203 |
Any flame out the stack? I blew a state of the art turbo up in one run when, I lost water. As far as good performing turbo that is tuff is a Garnett gt42. It is what I would run if you can run that big. good luck |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Wondering
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How did you arrive at the conclusion you don’t have enough fuel? |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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If it was two borg warners I just trashed I'd be more concerned it was an oiling issue. But I will be putting a gauge on my feed line to rule that out. Not sure how the factory t04 could last 5xxx hrs until I took it off just a few weeks ago and now I've got an oil issue? I doubt it, I didn't just patch this thing together, it's a stock tractor with the pump turned up. These turbos are Rotomasters, got them from different places and they were both built on the same day |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Help
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What’s your egts, exhaust and intake pressure? Not saying you patched it together… but if your blowing turbos back to back you’ve obviously got an issue that needs to be addressed so I’m trying to help. Maybe there’s an obstruction in your oil feed line? If you had it off maybe somethings stuck in it now? Maybe you stuffed something in the drain to keep the dirt out and forgot about it? If the drain is not sufficient it will back up and blow the seal. Shimming the oil pump to increase pressure is also recommended. |
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Re: Case A pump timing and rpm
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Drain is clear guaranteed, double checked that when 2nd one got put on. I have to put a gauge on feed to double check feed pressure to rule that out. But there was a factory Garret t04 on this tractor and I pulled it off to put the 1st aftermarket 3lm on it. It had shaft play but still worked. Had like 5600hrs on clock when I bought it with supposed 1000 hrs on overhaul. And the turbo looked like it'd been on there since new. I only switched to 3lm for pulling since we sold all of our farming equipment. First 3lm made a trip to town and back on the road with no problems. And both worked fine until they started actually making boost. Both the turbos I've wrecked have been Rotomaster 3lms that happened to be built on the same day (bought from two different places). We'll see what actually happened to this one in a day or two as it's still sitting on the trailer. I'm guessing the shaft broke this time |
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Results
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Just a little closer and results over the last month. 2nd Rotomaster 3lm shaft broke, nut fell off compressor ( I'm assuming one caused the other). Threw original t04 on to move it around under its own power, ran fine running in and out of shed around yard etc. Decided to put a lift pump on to cure the fuel supply issue I was having. And since 3lms are completely unavailable at the moment, I ordered a 60mm s300 with a .88 exhaust housing. Smallest I think I could get since I'm on stock pump and injectors. Made two 8mph speed limit hooks today with it and it ran flawlessly. Plenty of power in 5th. Smoke minimal as well. So my conclusion is the 3lms I got were garbage, and love how it's running with stock fuel. The temptation for more is going to eat at me this winter I'm sure. One more pull for us this next weekend. |
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