10:29:51am, Thursday, May 02, 2024
|
How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
So let's say you have the money to do it in your pocket and wanted to put together a Mod tractor. What would you build? What engines, chassis, configuration and tires would you go with and why? Would you build to try and run several different Mod classes or specifically for just one class? Would you build to be at the top of the class, if so how do you avoid the so called "Cookie Cutter" tractors that everyone seems to dislike? You have to build this tractor to a set of rules that exist now not some fantasy league rules that don't exist. Which set of rules do you choose and why...what makes your choise the better choice? What is going to give you the best bang for the buck and let you be competitive yet not create so much maintenance that you can't keep it on the track?
There's a lot of talk about how messed up the mod classes are and how unappealing they are...fix it build a tractor that's not cookie cutter but yet is very competitive, some of have done it now keyboard puller its your turn let's see what y |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
lutefisk and lefsa
|
I have 3 combinations to pick from,
1. Single Big Block Deere Pro Stock Diesel powered, light unlimited 2. Single maximum effort.903 Cummins Alcohol powered light unlimited. 3 Multi electric motor (manufacturer to be determined) powered light unlimited. * movable batteries to balance the tractor. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Tires
|
I see a couple guys commenting Mitas tires, what makes them more appealing in the higher horsepower classes? I’ve noticed many have switched in favor of the Mitas |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
Sold as giant slicks. No cut at all. Whatever cut design you care to imagine, you can cut into them from shape to angle to number of lugs. You can do anything, but they are generally heavier.
CP |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
TO S'NO FARMER
|
Todd- Would the double stuff mod of Larry Roberts with the 2 dt460s be completive in todays 7500 lb mod gn class???? |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
When they were running the Double Stuff they were fighting weight all the time. I believe hey had a hard time making weight as well as being front heavy on a lot of tracks.
S'no Farmer |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
This. Throw on the Mitas tires and not making weight. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
A mod with 4 Billet-block 2JZ Toyotas. should have a bunch of movable weight. Bryan Lively - 
    |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Clearly your pinned down to hemi power of some kind,what other choice is there ?. I'm not busting your balls at all,I'd think everyone likes to be competitive at some point.its clearly the leaderships fault for not recognizing the drop in participants,we all remember the days of 30 mods in a gn pull...do you think a set of handicaps would work for various powerplants ? |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
Patches,
I truly believe that there are twin Allison's and triple Chevy's that can be very competitive (Raptor & Top Gun). S'no Farmer |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 494 |
Gimme three AJ 481X and I would be good to go against any hemis. Might even turbo them! JW |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
gbf
|
Pointless thread as rules in the usa mod classes are made to favor and outlaw anything but hemi's. Mod class rules should be safety equipment and weigh nothing more. That is how you increase variety and quality of show.
Any mod from mini up to unlimited using turbo 3b rotary engines. If your going to be different why not make every ones ears bleed. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
We all hear all day long what needs changed but we still have to build within our so called archaic rules. We hear about handicapping all the time, how about two against three, isn't that a bit of a handicap for us Hemi pullers? Wedge engines at 70% overdrive Hemi's at 37% that's a bit of a handicap wouldn't you say?
S'no Farmer |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
Because pulling. Need some torque. The guy that figures out a stroker dorito will be rich. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Jschoenemann
|
Todd, I agree completely, the old time chevy guys, thats their famous scape goat, limit whats beating them, instead of updating. I'm confident if someone were to put 3 top of the line chevy's, best of everything, you'd be behind. Not discounting your equipment either. With the blower technology today, overdrive limits are a thing of the past. But as you said, alan is right there. He has good running chevys, but at the end of the day, a hemi will still be dominant i believe. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 343 |
Personally, I would buy components from supplier I felt had best products, and then build my own chassis, put my own engines together, and yes would be mod, mod rules will roll over from organization to the other, Go run where and when I wanted, no name on any kind of list ever. 3 engine combo at this time would be my choice and Mitas tires, Eric Prewitt The Prewitt Pulling Team Public Relations for The Pulling Radio Network |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Mod puller
|
I'm sorry to burst your bubble Joe three top the line chevys will never run with Hemis they do not have the main bearing support to take the power that A hemi will take and for us Chevy guys to upgrade as you say would take an investment of at least $200,000 who in their right mind would do this to compete for $500 so that leaves you with three tractors left in the region and my guess is promoters won't put up with only three tractors for very long and then those three tractors would have to go grand national and my guess is they could not compete there either and believe me I don't have all the answers but I know I just love go tractor pulling that's what keeps a smile on my face putting all those hours in to get to the track |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
I would somewhat agree with this.When I tore motors apart this spring I found 1 main cap that had been bowed down and had to be replaced on one of my dart blocks with the good caps on them. Wayne |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
Doubledose,
Hemi's are not immune to these problems either, we had two broken mains in one of our engines after the 2019 pulling season. I suppose any high preformance engines are going to break. What is the solution with Chevy style engines, less overdrive, less RPM? Just curious to what might help. S'no Farmer |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 09/10/2017 Posts: 60 |
3-4 charger single engine Cummins. 3000 plus hp. Fans love to see smoke and it would be something different than the normal screaming Hemi noise. |
|
mod tractor
|
Registered: 08/22/2019 Posts: 84 |
Sno Farmer. I want to start by trying to stay on your original question. If you told me to today to pick a class to build a mod, I would probably put a Light Limited Modified and run primarily with the Outlaw organization. Probably go Allison engine, build my own chassis (regardless of how well it works, I would like to try to build my own chassis), and the rest of the driveline I could go a couple different ways. Why this? I do feel this is a very neat class to watch and there is a lot of verity in the class. I just like them.
Now my opinion on how to "fix" things (since that is what this thread turned into). I am going to use the PPL mod class as my example. This class is dominated by Hemi powered cookie cutter machines. To start, don't touch the rules for the Hemi powered tractors, there good. Take the turbine tractors that are currently running the class and give them a little weight. Next, get a good 4 chevy engine mod and see how it compares and again give them some weight. You could do this with multiple different combos. Give them enough weight to get them close (yes close, not enough where they are them going to dominate the class). Use that as your starting point. It would take time to figure it all out. But I feel it could be done. Changing weight and hitch height are 2 of the simplest and cheapest ways to limit a tractor. |
|
Re: mod tractor
|
xxx
|
Now that is what we all need to hear, - but it will fall on deaf ears because we have no common sense any more, Very practical - what the previous poster stated, very Much so. |
|
Re: mod tractor
|
Dave Dann
|
I have just finished making several hundred prints from '77 to '90 NTPA events - SS, MOD, MINI, FWD, TWD, SEMI. It was enjoyable reminiscing.
I kept these current threads about the MOD rules in mind, as I did my work. Here's my assessment. It really does not matter what the rules are, in whatever decade or in whatever class. Current technology (whatever it was back then or current) and the pullers with the financial resources are always going to propel what ever pulling division and class to a (much) higher standard. Some pullers will see the handwriting of how their vehicle is not keeping up and make a dicision what he feels best is for his future endeavor. What pulling has lost are the days of homegrown engineering. The likes of Ron Perry (Dave Stangle / Dan Walsh) M-M's; EJ Potter Allison's, Bob Mitchell AC D21 alky, Conner's figuring out how to get a tractor tractor alky burner to work reliably and yet make awesome horsepower. Bosse Bros first 4 engine Mod with crossbox, and then futher refined by the likes of Banter and Engler. And yet back in that same era, are the likes of Harness and Hutcherson, who apparently had the financial resources, to bring forth the newest techology in engines, chassis and driveline multiplied by multiple engines in any given class. And guess what, the Mod discussion today was raging back then, too. So in many regards, it can be said not much has been changed in half a century. And yet, as the Mod class was 1 of the 2 original NTPA classes, the Mods today are still a puller and fan favorite. Cubic Dollars has taken their toll on the number of competitors over time. No different than SS. And probably the naturally aspirated FWD class. Appears to me like about the only class that has stayed steady over the decades are the TWD and perhaps the PS tractors. But back to the Mods. NTPA has rules for 5 different Mod classes. Seems like not much common denominator to compete from one class to the next. That sentence could become a thread topic all by itself. But, S'no Farmer, to answer your question. Since I'm in Region 2, its Mod class is relatively healthy but obviously not without issues. And that is NOT a dig against any competitor. Its just the way the rules are. Which is not anything new. Rules in any class has been a half century issue. If I was one of those financial resourced people, as you state, I would do basically what you are doing. But let's upgrade. Exactly to what Modern Machine owner, Brad Korporal has debutted with "Korporal Punishment". Light enough to run GN Light Unlimited, and yet can balance that setup for Region competition. And if want to run a few select GN events, add on the third engine. Flexibility. Kind of like the 'old' days of Mod pulling. Whatever the rules are, got to work within them. Rules in any organization (and life) are hard to change. It takes (lots of) time, patience and perseverance. And whatever they are, always going to be some that excel with them and others that are not and everything for results in between. Initally, everyone has the same rule plate. So its a matter of how to execute it to one's best advantage. Regardless if rules are up to date or antiquated or somewhere in between. Good luck, S'no Farmer, to get the Mod rules updated. And to try to keep everyone happy. Thanks for hearing me out. |
|
Re: mod tractor
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
Averscusauto,
Towards the end of the 2018 we were asked if we would be willing to run the Lt Unlimited class at Hudsonville,Mi with 500 extra pounds on our tractors and take the last two money spots regardless or where we actually placed. We agreed to do that as a way to try to even up the 14-71 tractors with the bigger blowers. It worked out pretty well as we were competitive even winning by a few feet the second night. Our thoughts were that the weight could be adjusted if 500 lbs was too much. During our meetings later that year the idea was shot down by the group as not being easy to scale the class creating confusion at the scales as well as not being a professional way to run the GN circuit. Ultimately the WPI turned down the proposal. S'no Farmer |
|
Re: mod tractor
|
Greg k
|
Oh my ! So I suppose the way they are running the light unlimited class now is professional ? Would those 500 lbs or somewhat less have kept Feiss Motorsports running the light unlimited class ? |
|
Re: mod tractor
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
I thought the 500 lbs was a good compromise that would have allowed the 14-71 tractors to be competitive and not punish the people that had spent the money on big blowers. An idea that was brought up was to have a sticker on the back of your tractor saying what the weight should be for the class, the person at the scale could then look at the sticker to monitor the weight. OSTPA used to do that in all classes along with what the hitch height should be, I'm not sure that they do that any longer.
As for would we still be running the class had this been implemented, we likely would because that would have allowed us to still run three different Mod classes. It's water under the bridge and we have moved on but would likley still go back and run that class on a regular basis if it were made to where we could be competitive with 14-71 blowers in some scenario. S'no Farmer |
|
What do you think
|
Registered: 08/22/2019 Posts: 84 |
Okay, S'no Farmer. Can I ask. Do you agree that it would be too confusing? To me, I feel it could be done. The LLSS class does it. Heck, they have 2 different tire sizes also. However, you bring up another questions that I have always wanted to know. How come there isn't something at the scale that says the class, what they run for hitch height, and what they run for weight. I understand pretty much everyone knows where there supposed to be. And the guy at the scale should know. I also understand that there are dedicated tools for checking the height of the hitch. But I have been at multiple events where the guy at the scale doesn't know. So why not put a board or something there that says it. Maybe some organizations do that already, but the events I have been at, do not. I guess just my 2 cents. I do not own a mod tractor and will probably never be able to. I do like the mod classes and do hope they make some changes for the better. S'no Farmer, I love your idea on this post of asking what would people build. I am sorry if I took some of it in a different direction. I don't get to see you guys run very often, but next time I am going to stop by your trailer to say hi.. You guys are great. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
past puller
|
Drive line speed limit would solve the problem. You can have the biggest badass blower in the world but why over power it if the gear is to slow. Set the speed of the drive shaft at the ave rpm of what ever engine you decide to run. Also at a certain speed and the field of tractors will all be in the ballpark. It will be a traction to balance pull like years ago. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
Are you talking a final ratio limit or an actual driveshaft rpm limit? If the latter, where? Axle speed between plantaries and diff? Between diff and cross/spider box? Whatever box and clutch?
CP |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Have to be axle wouldnt it ? |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
past puller
|
Final drive one full rotation of the rear wheel to the shaft going in to the clutch or in front of any gear box. I dont have the math in front of me but its pretty simple it will tell you the speed your wheels are turning. Only differents will be what engines ave for rpm. Hemi 8 to 9,000 chevy around 8,000 allison 4,000 an so on. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
past puller
|
Rpm divide by the ratio x17.5 divide by 5280 x 60 will give you your wheel speed. So if we take say a chevy with a 24 to 1 turn of the rear wheel ratio and at 8,000 rpm. It will be.
8,000 divide by 24 x 17.5 divide by 5,280 x 60 = 66 mph wheel speed would all be really close and would solve alot of the problems. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
But would it? Or would builders just start chasing cam profiles ever higher upstairs?
CP |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
2nd puller
|
Let them when they dominate lower there final drive half way or at the end of the year. It would give the guys an edge when close to home open it up but through the year there better off to stay ave or they are gonna have to push it harder next year. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 631 |
2nd puller,
So in other words just keep changing the rules to rotate the winner so everyone's happy...a trophy for every participant!!! People who sandbag so the rules don't hurt them aren't competitors they are pretenders. BTW people who can get their engines to work better than others in the class have an edge, your formula keeps taking away the edge that people work hard for just because the next guy may not want to work as hard. Setting up your ride,reading a track are all part of the equation but so is keeping your engines running at peak performance. What if one puller has superior tires compared to the rest of the class? Do they have to give them up? Sorry can't get on board with these methods. S'no Farmer |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
2nd puller
|
They been rotating the rules for years for different turn outs of winners. Just lately there most all hemis because everyone switched to hemis. Just suggesting a way to make classes work with other engines. If something does not change soon it never will. There's also a lot more to pulling then rpm. Just because you run harder dont mean it would be a win with the gear rule it would be a balancing act of all factors. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Posts: 158 |
For Outlaw- one of Ross's Steam engines
NTPA Mod class 2 Allisons PPL/ NTPA Unlimited 2 Griffions Both V12 combinations would be heavily modified to withstand higher RPMS. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 03/27/2008 Posts: 1,149 |
Higer rpms won't do you any good on those engines. Both have a supercharger in front that runs into stall speed when they spin too fast. So there is an air supply limit. You can gear the chargers slower and rev the engine higher to compensate for that - but that just gives you the same air (= power) at a higher rpm.
The Griffon charger is A LOT better than the Allison charger, but both are "antique", take a lot of horsepower, especially the Allison charger only works well in a very small rpm range (prop speed up in the air) and both create absurd amounts of heat, when you get out of their upper rpm range - until they just stop delivering air. Floating Finish - the German Tractor Pulling Web Show and EU Live Streams: [www.youtube.com] |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Posts: 158 |
I understand the limits of the current superchargers, and since we are playing in dream land anyway, new superchargers would be made as well. The engine combination would be billet everything based loosely on the allison/griffon design. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Two billet aluminum DT466's side by side (as close together as possible) with mirror image OHC heads with a shared intake in the center. Common plumbing to tie the two together and three huge Wimer chargers feeding everything. I'd go tube chassis, not wedge... and it money wasn't an issue, a 6/4 titanium tube chassis (but that's a little crazy). Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
I had to read that twice. I so see it in my head... Someone needs to do that.
CP |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Question- what is the ballpark weight of a RR Griffon?
What is the weight of a new set of Mitas tires? Have an idea, not sure if it would work. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2021 05:58AM by The Original Michael. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
Factory dry weight of a Griffon is 1980lbs.
CP |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 10/02/2018 Posts: 7 |
Mitas 30.5 with out rims, already cut... 455 lbs. +/-10 maybe more variation as I have only measured 1 pair. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Name it something non-politically correct like "Siamese Twins"? Or simply "Conjoined". Two cast DT's can just barely make weight, but it can be done... how much lighter would two billet aluminum ones weigh? 100 lbs. each? More? Less? Would sharing the induction system save weight? Even if it didn't it would just be cool because it was different. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
2 bullet aluminum 8v92 2cycle Detroit's on ally would be way cooler,and cover the class on power..lol |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
WELL since Cummins built aluminum 5,9 cummins engines for boats a couple of those on alky would be nice |
|
Re: How would you build a Mod?
|
Registered: 07/18/2016 Posts: 74 |
I'd Continue adding on to our current tractor. Step the Allison we have up to the 9.6 supercharger and put 2 557 Miner Bros with screw chargers transverse behind it. If everything goes to plan this will happen in the future. I built the tractor to allow us to climb up the ranks without changing chassis' Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/27/2021 03:28PM by Lex560R. |
Website Statistics
Global: Topics: 38,673, Posts: 229,771, Members: 3,327.
This forum: Topics: 37,076, Posts: 225,944.
Global: Topics: 38,673, Posts: 229,771, Members: 3,327.
This forum: Topics: 37,076, Posts: 225,944.
Our newest member Jason
