02:40:26am, Monday, April 29, 2024
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Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Ticket Holder
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If this engine block failure would have been at the NFMS,.. several spectators would have been injured without a doubt. My question is,....is the Ford Light Pro owner liable for the lawsuits that would come from it. The thread about "How pulling dies",...................I think we may of just answered it............ |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
Insurance is the simplistic answer, any large organization likley has pretty good insurance that will cover these things. I guarantee that buildings like the one in Shipshewana and NFMS demand that those putting on the events carry adequate insurance. I know NTPA carries very large amounts per incident meaning for every person that is injured.
S'no Farmer |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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lutefisk and lefsa
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[www.motortrend.com] |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 02/21/2019 Posts: 38 |
Was there an engine cable? |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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.
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Yep and it did it’s job |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Team one
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Explains why you don’t see many Fords in light pro. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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.
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Strange viewpoint….. won every time it hooked this weekend and was quite successful outdoors this summer. Simply found the weak point same as has been the case in any other brand. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 11/24/2019 Posts: 242 |
So Ford is the only one who has block failures?
Give me a break. There are plenty of JD and IH block failure videos out there if you care to look. I don’t attend a huge number of pulls, but I have personally witnessed several of each. Shramek had a block failure at BG several years ago. Jacked Up threw the big Cummins block on the track at BG. There was a JD at Gordyville that left the block on the track several years ago. Of biggest concern to me is that the side shields didn’t seem to contain things very well. Jason Shultz had pictures on Facebook of a piston on top of his tent and a table that got hit by the camshaft. They were lucky there weren’t injuries in the crowd. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Team one
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Hard to take your information seriously if you think Jack pulled with a Cummins … |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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.
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Lol team one how about this. I’ve seen red, green, and orange pitch blocks in light pro. Green seems to be in the lead in this statistic in the light pro class. Countless other blocks have been pitched in other classes. One Ford does it and all of a sudden you know why you don’t see many Fords. Hard to take your comment seriously when you make a poor choice in your first comment and follow it with your second comment |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Team one
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Fair enough, how come you never see them run a class where boost is even higher? I have no hate for the builder or the brand but it’s obvious to me light pro may be plenty for that block, and your right if I knew everyone would get butthurt and cry about it I maybe wouldn’t have made a comment but that doesn’t make that comment wrong. You see more red and green split because there are more of them, more tractors out there means they are making more passes. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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.
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Very simple explanation. By far the bulk of popularity of Ford pullers is concentrated in the east coast where they have been running under the mod turbo rules at 540 cubes. Out west nearly every class jumped from a 466 ci to 640 ci. That cube jump eliminated most brands outside of red and green. As light pro has gained in popularity the mod turbo out east stayed strong also and so they didn’t venture into the true light pro class now that someone proved the potential of the Ford in the light pro the next step is to make the next step towards reliability just as red and green have done in years past when they exceeded the limits. In order to rise to the top with something not red or green it takes someone willing to invest the time, effort and financial resources necessary to get there. As always that means a multitude of failures and improvements on the way. So to answer your question team one the reason you haven’t seen them in the “higher boost” classes is because you didn’t have the person/persons willing to assume the risk of failure for the glory of succeeding. Until now. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Wrong
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Denny Haford ran a ford back in the 80s, 7 an 9 super stock that made BIG Boost , ran strong. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Yes
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Beer money Facebook has it. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 11/24/2019 Posts: 242 |
Hard to take you seriously if you don’t realize there have been many block failures with other colors. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
Yep,blocks been splitting for 35 years this summer |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Really
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This is for the person that wanted to know if the cables around the block worked, from what i was told by someone there that the cables broke/snapped otherwise the head an turbo and top part of block wouldn't have ended up hitting the wall on the other side of sandpile. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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No
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To Really: the purpose and reason for the placement of the engine cable is to flip the cylinder head/block forward away from the driver not to retain it in the event of a failure |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Really
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It still broke, it did flip it forward, right over the sandpile about 20 ft away or farther. Wait an see i bet they'll be a new rule- everyone will have to have 2 cables before this is all over, but to say the cable actually did what it was supposed to do i guess its all in who you ask !!! |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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No
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That won’t help anything |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Ticket Holder
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One would hope so,...however have you or one of your fellow competitors ever had a copy of the insurance policy limits been given to you for inspection at one of these indoor non-sanctioned events? |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
Ticket Holder,
We have only ran indoors about 3 time in our carrier and no I didn't see this info. I will say that we mostly run NTPA and their head tech official has told us several times what the insurance limits are and they are impressive. We did have an incident with my wife getting burned at an event many years ago, we went to the hospital got it taken care of with no questions asked...no bills, no questions. Pulling can be scary but over all compared to most other motorsports it's safer for the participants and fans than most. S'no Farmer |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Kristy Moore
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Please explain this statement - why you dont see many fords in light pro ???? Makes no sence, any speculation on why the engine exploded ? Also ppl were lucky there was no eyes put out' lol injured being that close to the track |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Paull
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Very lucky the crew at the end of the track was not hit hard with the flying parts. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Idk
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Is it possible something other than diesel or regular water could cause more of an explosion, not accusing this tractor of that but would it ever be considered and would it void the insurance if a tractor was not within spec fuel and water and caused a much bigger explosion than should happen. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
No. There was zero warning. Teardown of the head might reveal whether it was a dropped valve or if the block simply failed.
CP |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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what happened?
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anyone got a video or photos? whos tractor was it? |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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xxx
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youtube |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Light pro fan
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They sure hurt a lot of feelings this weekend! Best of luck to them getting it back together |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
The way Simpson had youngblood held together was well worth the effort.adds a tremendous amount of strength to the block |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 07/09/2008 Posts: 133 |
How was that held together? I never really had the opportunity to look closely at it. |
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Mini Rollover
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Just Sayin'
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I have yet to see a video of the mini mod incident. |
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Re: Mini Rollover
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Registered: 11/24/2019 Posts: 242 |
There are several out there. I think I have seen 3 different ones. |
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Re: Mini Rollover
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Just Sayin’
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Still haven’t come across one. Does anyone have a link to share or point me in the right direction? |
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Just Sayin’
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lutefisk and lefsa
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[www.youtube.com]
google is you friend |
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Re: Just Sayin’
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Just Sayin’
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Google is a good friend ……at times, lol. Thanks!
After watching, looked as if all the safety equipment did exactly what they were designed to do. Of course with minis, there have plenty of instances to pull information from. Hoping the driver only has a hurt wallet from the ordeal - could’ve been much worse. |
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Re: Just Sayin’
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 494 |
Actually a brief hospital stay, surgery, and followup appointments with physical therapy. |
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Re: Just Sayin’
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Just Sayin’
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Sorry to hear that. Hope all goes well physically and also hope they can get things back together for the summer |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Kristy Moore
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CSo very true,, as in simply a clamp at 4 corners that works simply- but idiots pay close to 2000 for this |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Joey
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Tractor was high rpms right off the line. The way we are pushing stuff, - we will see more of the same. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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How?
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Did it win the class while dropping parts on the track under green flag? DQ most everwhere that I know. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 03/12/2019 Posts: 51 |
Yes, per what I read they still won the class due to a major failure like that being an excess of the rule for “dropped parts”.
Basically it blew up big enough the dropped parts rule was overruled |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Agreed
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I agree, if you drop a weight or side shield or anything else and you are disqualified! However you scatter half of your tractor into the crowd with a potential of serious injuries or death and the rule just gets overlooked or forgotten about. Makes no sense! |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Rules reader
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Parts on the track due to internal breakage has ALWAYS been OK, not overlooked or given a pass.. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Terrible to see this type of breakage. I've seen multiple Deere and IH blocks split like this. As was mentioned by Patches the Youngblood tractor split the AC block in Bowling Green a few years ago. The block was tied together with external tie-downs and the explosion was contained extremely well because of it. This won't be the last time we see breakage like this, but hopefully this will be a reminder to all pullers that investing in safety should become more of a priority. Adding external tie-downs can remove stress from the block (put it in compression instead of tension), and in the event of catastrophic failure, can help contain the explosion and keep part under the hood and keep people safe.
As for parts on the track, this has been a rule for a long time. Years ago Roger Early won Bowling Green after splitting the block in the DSS class in a very similar fashion. To all pullers running cast blocks... consider adding external tie-downs. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Jake, external tie downs were in place on this engine |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
If that's the case they were not engineered well (or not engineered for where this breakage occurred in the block). It's hard to tell from the few pictures I've seen, but I didn't see any so they don't appear to be of significant size or else they just aren't in the pictures.
I don't know any details about Matt Smiths setup so I won't speak specifically about his setup. However I've talked with plenty of pullers who think tiedowns are just a couple of bolts going from the front and back of the head to the top half of the block with some strapping. Since most of these types of catastrophic failures happen at the cam line those types of restraints won't do anything. When I sat tie-downs I'm picturing something from girdle to head or girdle to deck plate. Something that truly puts the block in compression. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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.
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That causes the explosion to go out. Oh and the style you speak of typically are tied to the billet timing cover of which is typically attached to the girdle |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
First block I knew of was in 87 or 88 in memphis,mark gettinger,pretty sure rob russell split one the same summer too |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Doesn't matter if it's PPL West,Gordyville or Shipewana! Guillotine tech checks aren't cutting it anymore less talking and B.S.ing and start checking safety. If you can't measure or enforce tires why expect you would check cables. I personally didn't see a cable and if it broke there needs to be rule change. Beer Money less worrying about your views and tic TOC hits. Parts were stick hitting the floor when it landed on Facebook. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Do some research
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Wow. Some people here really think they have it figured out.
The cable did exactly what it’s supposed to…..it redirected the force of the explosion by making the block “fly” forward and away from the driver and most obstructions. The cable will almost certainly have fractured. How are you expecting a cable to contain an explosion of this magnitude? Obviously you have a hard time comprehending the dynamics of force. The fact is this is an indoor event, nothing that happened here is a surprise. Blocks let go every year. When it’s outside there’s a bunch more physical space for them to move in. In this circumstance, the wall stopped the motion. It will be far from the last. For the cable naysayers, it was never designed to “contain” this type of incident. It was designed to redirect the force. Get over it already. What do you think the people with finish line seats (looking straight down track) at Louisville are thinking now? |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Yes, the cable did it's job. Could it be better? Probably. Maybe it's time to look at a larger cable. Maybe it's time to look at a redundant system... two cables, one to take the majority of the impact and a secondary cable with more slack that will help contain the parts. Engines flying out the front of tractors has happened for decades and maybe it's time that the sport stop simply saying "well, nobody got hurt" and instead start looking at how to improve safety. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 01/03/2019 Posts: 280 |
I was wondering about this a bit. I know the purpose is it make the engine "flip forward" but why isn't it designed to contain the engine directly in front of the tractor or truck? Is this to make sure it's not run over? The cable usually has to pass through the exhaust manifold to make sure it doesn't slip off the head but why is it not secured to the chassis on the bottom? The cable is likely strong enough today as 3/8" cable has a breaking strength of around 14,500 pounds. With the slack in the cable the majority of the force is expelled as soon as the engine splits therefore the actual force on the cable is much less by the time the slack is taken up. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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As I stated I didn't see a cable and if it broke and has happened for years as stated it's time to do something. As you said NFMS several wouldve been hurt or worse. Let's be proactive instead of reactive. I run a bigger cable but never liked the clamps holding it. Louisville has time to implement a rule to maybe prevent this. Pistons and Cams in the crowd is unacceptable as well possibly keep the motor and head in place maybe parts will stay contained I don't know. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I realize that this was not a NTPA event, however I believe that the NTPA leads the way when it comes to safety. I would like to think that the leadership will take a hard look at what can be done to minimize a potential disaster and once again lead the way with good strong rules that will be accepted across the pulling community. It time to address this issue and the wheel teether debate. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/16/2022 02:06PM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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.
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Only one way to fix this one Dick. End the use of all oem ag components and mandate the use of purpose built components designed to harness this type of power. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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SMH
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What’s does getting rid of the cast rear end have to do with an engine explosion? Last time I checked the component chassis has nothing to do with an engine block explosion. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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.
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Oh smh how shortsighted of you. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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.
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SMH I just realized you may not know that an engine block is an oem component. However I did mean chassis parts as well |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Super Stock
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The engine was built by a very well known builder that generally does an excellent job trying to hold the blocks together, I know that for a fact. The best way to fix the problem is to have recast or billet blocks from light pro up, but also go to overhead cams.....why overhead cams???....because when you make the blocks the void where the cam and lifters are can be filled solid and beefed up. No more weak points there. Yes, that will cost more but will save you in the long run. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Well said! |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 09/26/2021 Posts: 71 |
I think at indoor events with close spectators should start requiring safety fencing. Those where some massive pieces that flew pretty far. I’ve seen some pretty small thin fence stop a full speed sprint car tire. Do I like the idea of the fencing..no. But, its time to take a serious look at them. Racetracks around the world have them and no one bats an eye. Hell, baseball has netting around the whole infield foul pole to foul plow in most places. There have been enough random flying parts into crowds over the last few years it needs to start getting some discussion outdoors as well. 20ft high fence or netting from start line to max distance allowed to pull. If the fencing doesn’t ruin the experience at a sprint car race it shouldn’t bother you at a pull. It shouldn’t take someone getting a piston or a camshaft to the skull to look into how to keep things safe. |
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Fencing?
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Chain link vs hockey rink glass.
Thoughts |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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GOING TO HAPPEN
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So where do we draw the line?????? I LOVE PULLING probably more than the next guy but when is enough enough?? more power more air more fuel running past the edge here and in many man classes. It will be to late when someone looses their life. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
It seem to me in some of these comments all safety precautions worked engine went forward as design to do. My question is why so many were sitting in lawn chairs at the end of the track maybe 10 feet from the chalk line in the videos I watched. In all my pulling days we have tried to keep people back at the end of the track . Why was this over looked Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2022 01:57AM by David Runkle(earls dream). |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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bingo
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"why so many were sitting in lawn chairs at the end of the track maybe 10 feet from the chalk line"
Couldn't have said it better. It is unconscionable to think that this should be allowed. Individuals in a casual seated position with vehicles travelling at 25-35 mph at them. I don't think it takes a genius to figure out what would happen if there was a rapid out of bounds movement or if that engine flew out angular - or maybe 20' earlier. You couldn't pay me to sit that close. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Paull
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I don't think the engine went forward, it flies to the side, the white tin wall was not in front,VERY LUCKY PEOPLE SITTING THERE, and where were the pull people, flag and unhook people? Very Lucky. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 11/24/2019 Posts: 242 |
Look again. The engine went almost straight forward, over the sandpile, and hit the wall. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Paull
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Sorry, the video I see shows it happen so fast,and camera pan -but upon second third look, it appears to go forward, - but the funny part, after engine is gone is that driver is shifting gears and flagman tells him to back up. LOL One blew up at the Nationals in Hutch Mn. and the cables allowed it to lay over on the side next to the frame.but contained most of it pretty well. In this case, the smaller parts that went wild are of a bigger concern,can't have a tether on pistons or cam shaft. Almost more concerning is the whole unit going into the crowd with the speeds they achieve. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 630 |
Paull,
I'm pretty sure the flagman was pointing at the driver asking if he was OK. S'no Farmer |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Registered: 11/11/2017 Posts: 150 |
Well said HumminG CumminGs! lol! One thing I thought about, and have not seen it mentioned anywhere, is was there signs of potential breakage before pulling it down the track that last time? I just cannot believe it would just all of a sudden let go like that. I have to think there was some cracks starting to show up as leakage. The engine had to be trying to tell you it wasn't happy so to speak. Knowing it was starting to crack and then running it on kill anyway would be a bad deal. This tractor ran great every trip down. Maybe they leaned on the tuneup more knowing it was their last pass for the weekend? No one like to see carnage! Thankful no one was seriously injured. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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.
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No different than Louisville fans setting directly at end of track. It’s one thing to allow the sale of the seats but what of the mentality of the folks that sit there? |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Moderator Registered: 01/11/2009 Posts: 1,579 |
There is no seating in the first level directly on the finish line in Freedom Hall. Seating in sections 101, 102, 103, 143, and 144 were eliminated a few years ago. I sat in 101 twenty years ago during a Saturday afternoon session, its a bit uncomfortable to see a vehicle barrel at you. Bryan Lively - 
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
Well, they WEREN'T fans. It was track official Erik Guthrie and Klint Tucker himself sitting next to me. CP |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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bingo
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Geez.....take a chill pill. Where did it say they were fans.......Not once did I say that those were fans sitting inside the cement blocks. The point was why would you SIT that close to the track? Stand maybe.....at least then you have a fighting chance to move, but not from a seated position.
The comment regarding fans seated at Louisville was drawing a comparison to if this same incident occurred with fans seated straight on with the finish line. But we have since learned that doesn't exactly happen anymore. So just calm yourself a little. |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Posts: 1,161 |
Not sure where you think Charles is out of control here that he needs to calm down. Sounds like it might be the other way around here. Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: Ford Light Pro Engine Explosion
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Pulling Fan2
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I believe the pull is unsanctioned. |
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Inner side shields?
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
No one has mentioned this. On an inline 6 inner side shields are required. Be mounted to the chassis and bolted to the block. Doesn’t appear anywhere that these were in place? |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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you right
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Yes it does appear there were no secondary inner side sheets, or even any evidence of points they would have sat on those frame rails. I would be surprised if these were not a requirement of the organization he normally pulls with......but stranger things have happened. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 01/17/2022 Posts: 1 |
I witnessed this in person and was shocked that there were no inner side shields. I thought they were a safety requirement. I believe they would have contained most if not all of the pieces that flew to the side. dam lucky no one was injured |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
I'm all for safety but fans, competitors, track crew and anybody that goes ANY motorsports event takes on a personal responsibility and inherent risk that if something goes wrong we accept outcome. We all know there is danger involved in motorsports no matter how safe you try to make it. If you feel unsafe at any motorsport then motorsports ain't for you. Accept your personal responsibility and known risks involved and enjoy yourselves. Stop pointing fingers and trying to place blame on those of us that have accepted the risks and take our own personal responsibility for our own well being! |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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lutefisk and lefsa
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I wonder how many fans and sponsors, will agree with you and your statement. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
NTPA just added a second cable effective immediately |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Kudos to Larry Richwine and the NTPA for acting so quickly. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Anderson Farms & Trucking
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Since NTPA has just recently employed having a second cable, can someone relay where cable is to be located ? Thank You . |
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Anderson Farms & Trucking
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lutefisk and lefsa
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NTPA Rule Update: Effective immediately (this includes Ocala):
Page 28 of the 2022 NTPA rulebook “Shielding” #1 letter now reads: J. All inline turbocharged engines are required to have two (2) 3/8" cables with a minimum of 4 clamps at the splice or crimps with a coupler on each cable. One cable be placed between first and second cylinder through exhaust manifold port area. Second cable around the engine anywhere in the front half of engine. Both cables circle the entire head /block assembly with a maximum of 4" slack. |
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Re: Anderson Farms & Trucking
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Registered: 01/23/2011 Posts: 241 |
I am curious, why aren't cables required on 4 or 8 cylinder engines? |
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Re: Anderson Farms & Trucking
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Registered: 03/26/2008 Posts: 343 |
I think not 100% but think some rule books it is worded “inline engines” which includes 4 cylinders, but not many 4 cylinders at the level that need cable, and a V-8 design is proven to come apart different, and cable on v-8 would or could cause danger to driver. Eric Prewitt The Prewitt Pulling Team Public Relations for The Pulling Radio Network |
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Re: Anderson Farms & Trucking
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Registered: 01/23/2011 Posts: 241 |
I agree with the inline comment.
I do not understand why a V engine would not require a tether of some kind, can't a similar failure occur with a V engine? Rich |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
Over 100,000 kids a year get hurt playing baseball. 5 to 6 a year of those die!!! Do we stop baseball for kids??? There is risks involved with anything! Accept the risks or live in a bubble. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Not a good comparison. You can't compare risk of playing baseball to that of being a baseball fan and going to a game. Yes, everyone playing anything (motorsports included) assumes risk. The expectation of risk for attending an even as a spectator is very, very, very different. If I play a hockey game I know there's a good chance I get hurt... if I go and watch a game I know there is also a chance of getting hit with a puck but it's much, much, much less. In fact most rinks put up simple netting to minimize risk for the fans. To keep the game where the game should be played. Motorsports keep parts where parts are supposed to be. Pretty simple concept. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Umm actually its the same. I feel just as threatened watching a ball game as I do at a pulling event. Fact of the matter is I've actually had more close calls with being hit by baseballs outside the field of play than I have pullling parts outside of the track. Yet I know at either place i assume a risk |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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limited pro puller
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At this pull inner side shields weren't a requirement that i know of wonder if their was inner side shields maybe it would have helped. Wonder if hoods were latched down not saying it would stop a flying motor but if it helped stop 10% of parts that would be a win their alot of hoods that aren't bolted on by much anymore |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Sorry Andy, but that's a dumb comment. Yes, there is risk in everything we do. There's a risk of a plane crashing into my house but I don't expect it. I also don't expect an engine to fly into a public (fan) space at ANY motorsport. It's completely unacceptable. Any other motorsport would never tolerate anything like this. When something like like this happens in other motorsports the sanctioning bodies take immediate action (even if it wasn't at their event) They don't simply tell their fans "If you feel unsafe at any motorsport then motorsports ain't for you. Accept your personal responsibility". That's a completely ridiculous statement for you to make. Fans expect to watch the action, not be part of it or have part of it land on them.
According to your comments, a new fan brings his family to a pull just to check out the sport and you think he should expect something like this to land in a space that could have been occupied by his wife or kids or other spectators? Really? Surely you're not serious. I'm sure there are inexpensive solutions that would be easy to implement that would minimize the chance of this happening. So why not talk about them. Why not figure out a solution before it's a tragic situation? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Amen Jake! |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Thanks for posting about the NTPA. I'm really happy they moved so swiftly. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Jake, Andy's comment isn't dumb. He is right, when you attend a high performance motorsport event it should be common sense that their is a possibility that you could be injured while in attendance. The possibility of seeing destruction of some sort is a part of the lure for the fan. Of course no one wants to see anyone get hurt and safety rules should be in place to help prevent it but its redundant to think that some responsibility for the fact they are potentially putting themselves in harms way isn't assumed by the attendee, competitor, workers, photographers, etc. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Everyone should expect the person putting on any motorsport to take their utmost effort to make the event safe. Heaven forbid that a child is hurt or even killed at a pull and you won't have to worry about how the sport will die.
It will DOA in an hour. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2022 08:58AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
Read the back of any NHRA TICKET. Read the small print!!! I wish I was a bubble salesmans because I'd start by selling some of you a bubble!! |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Big difference in NHRA and a local brush pull I don’t think I’ve ever had a ticket to a brush pull |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 09/10/2018 Posts: 126 |
Really? Big difference? Tell that to the lady's family that Antron Brown killed. It was totally unexpected especially where the lady was located when she lost her life! The rIsk will never be totally eliminated of injury or death at any motorsports event EVER!! Either you accept the risk and responsibility or you don't. It's a really easy concept! Lord knows some people would have a stroke if they ever went to a dirt track race!! |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
NOBODY is talking about zero risk. We're talking about minimizing risk for a known issue. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Yes that is a terrible thing and I’m sure it was totally unexpected but that’s the point we’re trying to make , this has become to much of a regular thing and needs to be addressed
I’ve stood beside a detonated block when it happened I’ve stood beside a detonated flywheel at a brush pull I was at Ft Recovery when the mini rod driveshaft came apart and watched the woman be carried out on a stretcher that it hit 10’ away from me and knowing my boys and I started to set where she was sitting but changed our mind So now I try to be aware of my surroundings and pay attention to every pass the whole way and have an exit plan but if you’re up in the bleachers that’s hard to do Making it safer for the people in the stands is just as important as making things safe for the the drivers and I’m sure the guy on the mini rod the other day is thankful he had a roll cage |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
But once the sport knows there’s an issue such as this it becomes known negligence not just a freak first time thing
Are you going to tell me that if you know a block is going to detonate near where you will be setting with YOUR FAMILY that you will still set there? Probably not. |
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To the dot guy
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Pulling accident
Look at this video from another thread. Is it your position that those fans were stupid to sit where they sat, or should the promoter have considered the possibility that having seating at that location may not have been a wise move? If you were the promoter in that situation, and let's say when the vehicle broke from the sled it had more groundspeed and made it to where those spectators were sittiing. Wouldn't you expect to be sued for everything you own? If the worst case happened and you were the puller, why wouldn't a lawyer also sue you for everything you own? Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/17/2022 08:59AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: To the dot guy
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Pulling Fan2
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Blower restraints, spark plug shields, wheel tethers, automatic parachute release, restrictor plates, etc etc etc. Yes sanctioning bodies have worked to make things as safe as possible for competitors and spectators. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
As I said earlier, there is risk in everything (I think we agree on that). There's risk in sitting home or going out and we all assume risk in everything we do. Driving? Risk. Eating at a restaurant? Risk. However if I'm eating at a restaurant I expect to not get sick from negligence of the chef. So the chef cooks the food properly and follows all the safety standards. When they don't follow standards or when they have repeated problems it opens them up for liability. It shifts the responsibility onto the restaurant for failure to act when there is a known risk.
Motorsports have safety standards. When they have repeated issues and take no action and just say "Oh well the fans should know the risks..." it opens them up for liability and it shifts the responsibility to address the risk to the organization. Even a bad lawyer would argue that the risk was known by the organization and they didn't act. Even a bad lawyer would argue that a fan must be clearly made aware of the risk at the event or sign a waiver of risk. Fans reasonable expectation as a spectators is minimal risk. This has been expected practice for all motorsports and all sports. The last Pro hockey game I attended they made an announcement about the risk of flying pucks for those sitting in areas where there is no netting... they they put netting in high risk areas but also made it clear to fans that there was a rare risk in the other areas and the fans need to be aware of that risk. So yes there is risk, but the risk is clearly communicated. Was risk communicated at the pull? Either via an announcement or on the ticket? Ho many pulls have you ever been to that communicated the risk to you? Clearly the NTPA thought this was unacceptable as well and they just changed the rules to add a second cable. CLEARLY the NTPA doesn't want their fans to feel unsafe at events. Clearly motors shouldn't fly into spectator areas. This was not a fluke incident, it's just the first time it landed where spectators could have been. Motors have launched out of tractors onto the track numerous times, but thankfully they've stayed in the filed of play. I've been on the sidelines and had parts fall next to me. I knew the risk and I signed the waiver. Not all fans know the risk... that's why this is unacceptable and that why the NTPA acted. AGirbach's comments seem to indicate that we didn't need to do anything and if someone's motor lands on you... oh well, you knew the risk. I''m positive that not everyone knows that's a risk, and that's not a reasonable risk for any motorsport. For those of you who don't understand that... well that's just sad! Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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plum krazy
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Many tilt hoods are not latched or tightened down, most likely could pick them up against the hydraulics or electric thingamajig,watch many hoods flopping in the wind as the tractor goes wizzing by, shake raddle and roll on the outside, but think about the internal pressures ,it will take more than a simple fix to contain those potential explosions successfully. Several hundred lbs of metal being moved at the speed of mucho force. I have not heard of the inner side shield requirements, but it makes sense, hard on adjustments and maintenance, but keeps the outer look good.it will take more than 1/4 inch bolts and 1/8 inch al. everyone is so weight conscience. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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I guess it’s just a sad state of the times we live in. I know I’d sure feel like I had a leg to stand on if I got hit with a hockey puck at a hockey game and no one told me I could possibly get hit by a hockey puck at a hockey game. Oh I’ll have some coffee. Hey! No one told me the coffee would be hot!
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Yes, at times it's idiotic. A can of Peanuts says may contain nuts... Railroads tracks need to be marked so people know it's not safe to walk on them... High voltage lines have signs to let people know there's a chance of electrocution. I get that those are obvious to almost anyone. Those are stupid and commonsense should make all those things clear.
This... this is not that. No one. Not a puller. Not a fan. Not a promoter expects an engine to land in a spectator area. It's not a risk people would normally assume. It's not a risk some guy off the street would assume if he was going to a pull for the first time. That's the whole point, some risks are expected, some risks are normal, some risks are clearly assumed. This is not one of those times. How is this so hard to grasp? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Can you guarantee containment under any and all circumstances? Because if you can’t that risk always exists. Whether it be an engine, a wheel or an entire vehicle. You will never legislate out risk. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 04/14/2021 Posts: 27 |
You are absolutely correct that nothing can guarantee containing any and all engine parts in the event of an explosion. BUT, the first thing a lawyer is going to look at in the event of an injury is that did the tractor owner/driver, pull promoter, sled operator, venue owner/operator and the guy running the snow cone stand behind the bleachers do everything reasonably possible to prevent an injury from occurring. So if a puller/sanctioning body after an incident like this doesn't make changes to prevent there from being a "next time", when there is a "next time" a lawyer will have a field say saying "You knew this could happen again and you didn't to anything to prevent it, therefore you are responsible"
Yes, the risk always exists. But you have to take action to minimize that risk. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Nobody is saying legislate out all risk. Not once has that been discussed. That's a knee jerk assumption. We're talking about solutions to minimizing risk for a known issue. We're discussing reasonable risk for fans. The is no zero risk situation in life. As I said, a plane could crash into my house... it's a risk but it's very small. Nobody is discussing zero risk. NOBODY.
We're talking about the risk of six-cylinder engines splitting in half. Sure it's fairly small but it does seem to be increasing. It's a known issue, but this time it landed in a unacceptable location. I'd say engines launching is more common than a flywheel exploding but yet all non-component tractors still have a SFI blanket on them to minimize risk. That's all we're talking about. Just like the SFI blanket containing parts, we're discussing containing the engine from launching. The NTPA has addressed it with a second cable, maybe there are better solutions but sticking your head in the sand and pretending like it's acceptable is negligence. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Leon
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It’s gotten to the point that about anything above a super farm needs a aftermarket block. I know about everybody had a axe to grind when hyper came out with theirs years ago but maybe they knew what was coming. In building one now, I’d sure consider a recast, because one blowup and the sheet metals trashed, that would pay for the block. I’m not sure the inner shield woulda done much but they should be there as well. It is good to see ntpa quickly stepping up as well. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Oh my head is way above the sand here. That cable is just a bandaid on the latest problem area. Jake you said above we are talking about 6 cylinder engines splitting in half correct? It has been happening for 30 years potentially and since now we are discussing efforts to help eliminate risk let me ask you a few questions and in an effort to keep this from going completely astray lets keep this discussion for vehicles in excess of 2000 horsepower
1. Which would eliminate more risk, an additional cable or a recast/billet block? 2. Which would eliminate more risk, a clutch can or a ground out 60 year old cast iron housing? 3. Which would eliminate more risk, a component chassis or lightened 60 year old rear castings to allow more noseweight to harness increased power? 4. Is it negligence to bandaid an overmatched component rather than eliminate it when risk reducing options are available but not allowed due to the current ruleset? 5. Who would be liable in the event of a lawsuit if risk reducing options were not allowed due to popular vote of the pullers? 6. Why can't we proactively fix problem areas that so obviously exist instead of "sticking our heads in the sand" because something we know is past its capabilities and only put a bandaid on and not even take care of the problem we are bandaiding? |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Paull
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It's the same problem with all independent people, assertive owner operators, That is what most pullers are ,- want freedom and self expression. NFO never materialized because of the same issues back in the Day. We, all (most) want rules that cater to our own needs, wants, desires and wishes.And when you add in monetary, different rules and venues, we have a Hornet's nest. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
All those point are great discussion points, but they just cloud this topic and deflect from the discussion. All of those deserve their own separate topic. Feel free to start a topic about each of them at any time and I'll be happy to respond.
I will address recast/billet blocks since that relates to the current discussion: so are you saying to simply allow aftermarket blocks in all +2000 HP classes? (First, why 2000HP? I remember a SF launching a block at Hamburg a few years back so why not cover that class too? or do you have an agenda for a specific class?) or are you saying we need to mandate the use of aftermarket blocks in those +2000hp classes? If it's just to allow them then we still need to have the discussion of how to minimize risk for those who choose not to use or can't afford a aftermarket block. The risk will still exist for spectators and on track personnel for those non-aftermarket competitors so we still need to address it. It won't change the current discussion one bit. If your saying that we need to mandate them then what spec will there be for the blocks? Can anyone recast a block? What will make the recast blocks less prone to split if there's no spec on block design? Which of course brings us right back to the same discussion of how do we minimize risk. Either way we still need to have the discussion of keeping the blocks from launching out of tractor. Feel free to start new topics to discuss those other points. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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pulling fan
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I think its time to change gears on oem. This is a motor sport not a feed grinding tractor. Pulling should adopt a block built to a specific specs. Just make it an rectangle block no stupid oem shape as this is a motor sport. multi builders can build and sell to spec. This would put pullers on the same level playing field. You could run what ever color you want. Fans like good looking tractors, shinny parts, monster passes. I would hate to calculate the $$$ wasted in this sport to make an oem part work. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Including superfarms is fine with me. Yes all national level classes should be mandated to use recast or billet blocks only. No oem's allowed. No one's personal safety should be sacrificed due to financial or any other reasons. There are several current block suppliers that would be able to supply technical input on materials, thicknesses and processes to develop suitable specifications to set the bar if others wanted to cast/machine their own blocks. |
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My thoughts
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Registered: 06/10/2018 Posts: 149 |
I also was there. I also happened to be a FAN that was sitting in a box seat and was close enough I could spit on the track. I watched the mini-mod roll and break not far from me too (not many talking about that incident anymore after the Ford Explosion)…I also want to say that I thought it was a well run event and the entire crew did a nice job and put on a good event…But here are my thoughts after my first time at a Midwest Winter Nationals…
1) The MEC is a beautiful place. Great place to have a pull. But it does have some drawbacks on spacing width wise to fit everything in that section of the center (track, staging area, equipment, stands, vendors, etc….It’s a lot to squeeze in) - But yes…Fans were TOO CLOSE and I was acutely aware of it multiple times throughout the weekend. Maybe all indoor events should be looked at. 2) This terrible, scary situation is magnified because it happened indoors. If it happened outside I believe it would have been less “eye-opening” - Thank God no one was hurt. Not an excuse not to do anything. Just an observation 3) The blame doesn’t fall…in my opinion all on one person, event, competitor, etc. It IS all of our problem and we have to take it head on. We can’t continue to be reactive, as we have been forever in pulling. We need to think about all the “what ifs” as stupid as they may be and address them. If that means a class needs to weigh 200 pounds more to address safety…Then it needs to happen. If it means we have separate safety committees (like they do in professional sports) that are not influenced by pullers/promoters and their “votes”…so be it. 4) Yes we all know that pulling and Motorsports are dangerous. But we can’t say…oh well…We have to do everything we can to try to prevent ANY dangers we can big or small (farmstock pullers still don’t wear seatbelts)….They may be simple solutions. They may not be. Some might be expensive…But if a kid died on Saturday because he/she got hit by flying shrapnel…How much money do you think that’s worth? 5) Some of the thoughts on hoods, shields, etc were interesting. Didn’t think much about that before this situation…But there was another pass down the track that may have been forgotten by many that also got me thinking. One tractor has their side shield come open as he came down the track at 25+ mph. Nothing happened but wind resistance…But what if….What if? We gotta do something different here or that “what if” will become “what is” And again. I had a GREAT time and weekend. And I was maybe part of the problem and dumb for sitting where I did. So I take this just as seriously as anyone else. But we need to all have that mindset…We talk about promoting and growing the sport…Let’s put that much effort into keeping it safe too. ALL of us. Sorry for the long post. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
Until the legal system, (a law), and a court ruling agree with you 110 % that NO ONE can sue in the event of an accident, PERIOD, we have what we have. On the flip side, how many safety measures that were implemented over the years at motorsports events, do you think would be implemented if the "sport" couldn't be held responsible in any way / immune from liability. Liability insurers and lawyers wouldn't let this happen either. I agree with you to a point, but I don't have the answer either. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2022 12:14AM by JDpowershift. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
Two issues that pulling needs to address is the engine flying parts that can injury a fan, on track official or puller. And the other which I feel is just as important is a loose wheel going into the crowd. So the question is, is the rule making process proactive or reactive? Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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lutefisk and lefsa
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Reactive. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 08/25/2016 Posts: 14 |
that tractor should have had inner side panels. lots of rpm...lots of pressure. it might not have stopped parts from flying everywhere, but it would have slowed them down |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Now that is relatively clear what should be done, the next time it happens, and if someone gets hurt, their lawyer (or the insurance company's lawyer) is going to refer to this thread and say to the judge, "The powers that be, discussed the hazard and came up with some workable solutions, but no one implemented anything. I guess safety is not important to them". And the judge would then say, "Case closed, the court awards the plaintiff $3,000,000". |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Exactly
Like I said we’ve been flying under the radar but for how much longer? |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Fan 2
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If Slaugh's are willing to drive vehicles with their legs straddling the motor, I'm willing to sit in the seats and watch!! |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 08/16/2021 Posts: 306 |
This is one of the greatest comments ever made on this site!! Fan 2 I think I just became your biggest fan |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Just sayin
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CPR, Thanks for posting the links to whats smoking rules. According to these rules, the Ford tractor that grenaded has multiple violations of the rules, no inner side shields per NTPA, no cross bolts in exhaust pipe in front of turbine wheel, who knows what other neglect of rules the owner of this tractor has committed? If they clearly ignored some basic safety rules that many organizations have in place, then they apparently don't think much about the safety of themselves or especially others. I hate to see what happened happen, however we all dodged a huge bullet with this one, it was clearly an act of God that no one was seriously injured or killed. Think safety fellows. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Posts: 1,161 |
So he's been running out east with East Coast Pro Pulling and Interstate Pullers who have the exact same rules and no one has caught that he's been without them? Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Puller
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That tractor ran at some PPL east coast shows, but never any interstate shows. It's a light pro and not legal to run Interstate. The Interstate Mod Turbo rules are OEM blocks and heads with an A-pump. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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.
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. I giggle every time I see think safety and minimize risk shouted out and we continue to allow oem blocks, transmission and rear end housings in National level classes |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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plum krazy
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when and where have transmissions and rearends flew any where. Take care of the high pressure HIGH RISK AREA first and FOREMOST. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Excellent thought process plum. Just fix part of the problem and save the rest until the next catastrophic failure occurs. Very proactive |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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plum krazy
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It is excellent thinking, because COMPONET tractors aren't a dammed bit safer,as far as having the engine and parts fly out, just easier to build lite weight. Show me where a rearend or tranny flew any where. |
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plum krazy
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lutefisk and lefsa
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[www.youtube.com] |
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Re: plum krazy
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plum krazy
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in that video - you can see that the driver slipped the clutch a lot to try to go, ,CERTAINLY NOT THE FIRST TIME, which causes heat, which causes cast to fail, not the housings fault, not the rearends fault, but driver's error and responsibility to have steel flywheel and blanket,all the rules and safety demands you want, but COMPLIANCE IS A HUGE ISSUE.I put a steel flywheel on my little 150hp antique 25 yrs ago to keep myself, and net worth more safe, not 100% for sure, but certainly more so, and that's what we are considering here folks, -MORE SAFE. Argue all you want, transmissions and rearends break, but normally will fall apart and be in close proximity of the accident area, not like an engine explosion with many more rpms and much more pressure.- a pinion shaft has pressure, but only turns in a small radius, making the flying out aspect much less. Common sense people, we need sanctioning bodies, - but also need to self police these safety issues with common sense. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Plum did you ever hear about the dent in the upper end wall area of Gordyville’s arena? |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Or the rear end failure that totaled sidewinder?
I got more if you need em |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Component
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I saw a component mini in Shipshewana injure the driver. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Would you feel more comfortable going back to a cub cadet rear? |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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lutefisk and lefsa
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From what, I could find.
NHRA requires that the chassis of a race car that goes 9.99 seconds or quicker, or 135 mph or faster, to be certified every three years. This certification is an inspection of the thickness of the chassis tubing with a sonic tester. Does any level of pulling, inspect to this level? |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 04/04/2016 Posts: 110 |
Rear axle housings have broken off and 30.5's gone crusing down the track towards folks. Components are safer, many engine parts have landed near folks due to rearend and transmission breakage.
BB |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 10/30/2018 Posts: 749 |
If someone is hurt or killed the puller the sled owner the promoter and all will be under a huge law suit . Saw it happen already the sled owner no longer exist the Fair shut down for a couple years and when pulling came back to the fair the track was so far from the stands it sucked with so much power being produced now its a time bomb waiting to happen |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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It would be pretty tough to sue the sled owner, event promoter, or the owner of the building being how you must sign a liability waiver prior to entering the event that clearly states you understand the risk and agree to hold nobody responsible for accidents outside of yourself. Most don’t even read it they just sign. It was unfortunate but the cable did it’s job, as did the staff by not allowing anyone to be standing in the area directly at the end of the track while a tractor was pulling. The crowd did congregate in the corners Saturday evening for some reason which made it a pain to get back and forth to the far side, but Friday and Thursday hardly anyone was in that area |
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Proshawnn
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lutefisk and lefsa
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[www.wkw.com] |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,446 |
I do not agree that it would be pretty hard to sue, it might be pretty hard for them to win the lawsuit. However that doesn't mean that you still don't have to spend time and money defending yourself. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Walsh's sued everyone they could after their accident in Ohio back in the day. They got paid too. |
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KNOW WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU POST GRUBBY!
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
This is straight from the court pertaining to Walsh vs Luedtke and all defendants.
¶ 2 The parties agree that, for purposes of the summary judgment analysis, Ohio law applies. We conclude that, under Ohio law, the exculpatory and indemnification agreements that David Walsh signed effectively bar the Walshes' claims against Luedtke. We further conclude that the circuit court did not erroneously exercise its discretion in denying the motion to amend. Accordingly, we affirm the appealed order dismissing the Walshes' claims against all defendants. Happy Reading [case-law.vlex.com] [casetext.com] |
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Re: KNOW WHAT YOU’RE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE YOU POST GRUBBY!
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I stand corrected, I was told they won the lawsuit. But they did go after everyone they could in that lawsuit. And that was for injuries to a participant. Different story if a spectator dies. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 08/27/2019 Posts: 212 |
Liability waivers actually mean something? Even ones that are signed in front of a notary ??? I wouldn't bet the farm on that . Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/20/2022 10:01AM by JDpowershift. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Even if every fan signed a release before entering every event (and they do not—I've never signed one), there is only so much liability one can eliminate by contract. Even aside from liability, nobody wants to see anyone (especially spectators) hurt by an exploding engine at a pull. Morally and legally, organizations have an obligation to take reasonable, affordable precautions to make the sport safe. While complete safety is not achievable, complete safety is not what's required, nor is it what most folks here are talking about. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
You named only 2. The crosses were part of the exhaust housing itself and went with it. Several manufacturers have this now. So far we got inner sideshields based off of one pic and I may concede that one. I didn't check as I was busy checking on people at the time.
But by all means continue with the bashing. CP |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 02/08/2014 Posts: 406 |
I watched the FB video chat with the guys who help put the show on and they said the tractor had the inner side shields. I've helped at quit a few pulls over the years and we have a bad habit of "lets clean this up and get the show going again". I don't know if this was the case here or not. We might want to take our time and actually take a lot of pictures, video and measurement etc. and actually investigate the accident just like you would a car accident. Just a thought and maybe this is in place already at indoor pulls but have a safety coordinator. He or she could be the one who puts a stop to cleanup etc. until the I's where dotted and the t's crossed.
This incident happened so fast that you couldn't tell what the tractor had or didn't have in place. I know the Smith's are veteran pullers and I find it hard to believe they didn't have proper safety equipment in place. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
Looks like it was a tilt hood, I am sure the side shields were up to specs. In this case the hood was force open by engine failure. So with tilting hoods , should the side shields be bolted to the frame? |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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xxx
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WHY DO YOU EVEN ASK THAT QUESTION !!!!!!!!!! Pretty sure no one's hood is strong enough to hold anything - solid, not sure but most would agree that the FRAME is the strongest toughest part of engine area, DUH !!!!! Hoods just sit there not capable of anything except decals and paint. Side shields just standing alone upright without top cross over supports connecting both sides would do little if any good. And again as mentioned in above posts, weight is always a factor so if not thick, strong and securely mounted with meaningful hardware it is all a mute solution. What is close to -what,4-5 hundred lbs of flying cast, it's the blow and explosion power that tears things up and throws with momentum outward. When the clutch and or both flywheel and housing blows, the scatter blanket is not going to stop the carnage , but slow it down, contain most of the energy released and is designed to blow apart slowly releasing the parts slowly to lessen the flying outward. Engine containment structures need to be similar, look at the cages NASCAR designed, to with stand the G forces. And as several have stated, wheels coming off might be a more urgent case and whole units launching into the stands. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 02/19/2009 Posts: 526 |
Too mr.xxx , how many tractors have you teched? I have seen tractors with tilt hoods that do have side shields bolted on the frames. Will they hold this type of failure, probably not , but it might slow the side movement . In these videos and pictures the hood flipped forward. If these questions aren't asked how can safety be improved after this incident. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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ain'tnofool
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let's just put some cardboard in there to soak up the spilled oil and space, -oh and rubber band it to the frame, good for starters compared to nottin honey. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Paull
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Just read all the above posts and the problem explains itself, all differing opinions and some misleading facts, in order to contain an explosion there would have to be a very strong safe house built heavy and cumbersome, - that my friend's is not Happening. Side shields that leave their intended area when needed are not helpful, ---- ,space, weight,design and acceptable level of hopeful usefulness might be considered, but totally containing an engine wanting to vacate the compartment is not an easy task . This subject like all rules whether safety related or not vary from owner to operator to techs to fans and regions, groups and individuals with opposite viewpoints. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Georgee
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Tech for the most part is just a formality, a preconceived idea of fairness and equality, -how many pulls and how many hundreds of tractors pull any given weekend and how many do you ever see, - hear about, or be told about that were kicked out because of tech. All rules are open to discretion and interpellation of the person enforcing said rules and the promotor often has the final say, |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Keegan
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Did anyone ever think this - if the hood wouldve stayed- put- latched down---- the explosion wouldnt have scattered- ???? |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Nope
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No one has thought this. The hood is for looks only, if it had been fastened down it quite likely would have accompanied the upper part of the engine to its final resting place |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
How about a tubular cage built around the motor similar to the cage bolted to the frame, similar to a tire cage
This could have some flexibility built into it for each specific application and could still look good and be able to work on the motor to a point and wouldn’t hold heat in and would allow for fire extinguishing if necessary Maybe add another 100# to the class |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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The engine cage is a great idea. It would need a lot of engineering.
There are a number of potential problems with the cables as I have seen in some rules packages. 1) bolting and clamping - needs to say what clamps to use and a torque spec if you want them to have any kind of repeatable clamping strength. 2) if you don't restrain lateral movement of the cables, they can slide and lose usefulness. The looser they are, the worse it gets. Relying on manifolds alone for locating purposes is probably not going to be enough in some cases. 3) cable material should have a grade spec and a replacement interval specified. Also, like your chain and sling inspections at work, cables can't have nicks or frays. Dual cables is a step in the right direction, but there is a whole lot more to it to make them effective. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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.
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Be a lot more effective to just eliminate oem blocks wouldn’t it? |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Registered: 11/24/2019 Posts: 242 |
Aftermarket blocks have failed. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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The old hyper possibly has in dss. Don’t believe any of today’s manufacturers have had one split and be pitched. Chaos new ones won’t for sure |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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pulling fan
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cpr... you are correct and they are better than cross bolts as they are closer to the wheel, but that being said the rule states that cross bolts must be used so at this time until the rule is modified the tractor was out of compliance. That was not the problem in this case tho. The real problem is OEM parts failing. What do you think will happen when someone loses their life. The lawyers will have a hay day when they sink their teeth into OEM parts. It will be easy to prove that the parts where used beyond OEM standards and that they where modified. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Puller
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What does Orem parts have to do with this with the rules what are going to use |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
I don't think so. This wasn't an industrial accident. It was open competition. If injury or death due to OEM part failure was a cause for successful lawsuits, it would have happened already. There are no surprises that failures can happen in motorsports. You'd have to prove a willful negligence. I don't see that being the case.
I'm not just being obstinate, for what it's worth. I'm simply not convinced. CP |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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pulling fan
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cpr... I hope we never have to find out, but we have never had an accident resulting in death, so the waters have never been tested. I think it would be wise to be proactive on the classes with 1500 hp and above to get rid of oem cast rules. |
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Re: Inner side shields?
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billee,
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It looks like the problem is solved, . has all the answers and more, let's let that . person put on the show, make the rules, implement the safety and insure all is well, and have a great venue, |
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Re: Cause of failure question.
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Posts: 756 |
I did not read anything about the root cause of these engine explosions. I have always assumed it starts as a valve train failure, causing an exhaust valve to stop functioning. With that the cylinder fills partway with fuel and water and hydraulics the block apart. I am not an engineer but that makes more sense than just a weak block. |
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Re: Cause of failure question.
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Georgee
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Caterpillar had issues with block breakage when the 3176 was introduced and increased HP caused vibration problems to break parts of blocks, -not until the fourth try in casting did they add enough material to hold the internal shock loads from more power. Many engineers agree that valve train issues and high frequency vibrations spreads thru out the whole engine causing problems, we are doubling rpms, rod length, piston weight,stroke, pressures unheard of,not equal and opposite actions anymore, but energy that the blocks can't take long term. |
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Re: Cause of failure question.
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
I’ve always wondered if it’s sometimes injector failures. If the tip fails and it’s pumping a solid stream of fuel into the cylinder it could fill the bowl and hydraulic the cylinder pretty quickly.
This guy has a theory that it’s combustion lasting too far down the power stroke. The whole video is pretty interesting, his thoughts on the ‘danger zone’ start a little after 7:30 in this video Uncle Tony’s Garage |
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Re: Cause of failure question.
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Posts: 756 |
Tony has an interesting theory, maybe as the engine pulls down it is unable to maintain a full burn to the BDC? The idea that an injector tip blew off is also interesting to me. That would also hydraulic a cylinder. |
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Re: Cause of failure question.
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plum krazy
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The causes can be of differing origins, - however the solution needs to be a coverall system, not for a one only cause. Parts breakage is a constant in motorsports, whether it be OEM, billet purpose built or home remedy. First and easiest is to keep people from being near the tracks, any where along the path, many blow clutches at the starting line, some in the middle -some at the finish area, In forty yrs. of watching, I have witnessed enough carnage that my tall profile and safety concerns means that I stand behind a bigger person , large post, barrier, crouch down or move away from the starting area.We can self police to a degree, common sense is not so common these days. |
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