09:30:57am, Saturday, April 27, 2024
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Does "cross dressing" matter
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 663 |
The following was posted by member OH1979er and deleted. Not by me and not sure why. I happen to agree with much of the points.
IP/Host: (Hidden by me - CP) Is “cross dressing” really that big of a deal?56 minutes ago OH1979er Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 80 Private reply to this post Lifetime Rating: 89 Thumbs Up 20 Thumbs Down Rating: 69 Is cross dressing really that big of a deal? John Deere in an IH or IH in a John Deere. If it is that big of a deal why doesn’t the same mentality apply to all classes. In TWD truck competition why don’t we care if a Ford, Chevy, T Bucket, Willy’s etc have a Hemi in it? Are we only purists when it involves tractor classes? Why in the diesel truck classes do we not care that 99% of the class is 5.9/6.7 Cummins under a variety of hoods. Most the guys are pretty loyal to their truck brands as much as they are their tractor brands. If as one administrator believes that is the vehicle that is the star and not the driver should we really care what he is doing for durability under the hood? To compare to NHRA, whether John Force is in a Mustang or Camaro it’s still powered by a Chrysler Hemi. Show me people more die hard about American Muscle than car guys. I come down on the side of durability. As part of a team who has remained pure to sheet metal engine matching I can see the other side of the fence and see the advantage of any motor any sheet metal. The price of pulling has increased exponentially and the dollars it takes to develop something new for the sake of being pure is insane. As much as I miss the purist days I can also accept the fact that durability, ease of getting parts and staying competitive is a huge factor. If fans were as purist as we all think they should be why aren’t their antique pulls the size of BG, Tomah, Hillsboro etc? Same as drag racing this game is about HORSEPOWER and lots of it. That hp needs durability that off brands haven’t developed. Even in tractor classes with cast rearends are we really purist? When you can take a 706 rearend, put a 466 in front of it and MX sheet metal over it what is it really? A Frankenstock? Or how about in a LLSS an 1800 Oliver rear with a 5.9 Cummins and White sheet metal over it. Or there used to be a tractor in New York owned by Jason Hohman that had a Cockshutt 570 Super Rear, 5.9 motor and Oliver 88 sheet metal. So define pure. Is it engine and sheet metal matching, is it engine, sheet metal and rear end matching, or is it due to corporate buy outs as long as it’s from the Agco Family we will dress accordingly. Could you run New Holland sheet metal over an IH rear and motor and still be considered “pure” At the end of the day the average fan doesn’t care. If they did we wouldn’t see the thousands upon thousands that are going to descend upon Hillsboro and BG the next two weeks. Those of us who grew up farming, around agriculture and around the golden years of pulling care but not enough to stop us from enjoying the greatest motorsport in the United States. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
Thank you for reposting |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Posts: 1,161 |
Couldn't have said it better myself. Great post! Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Excellent post |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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The man up above
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Amen my son. I'll invite you up Infront of the congregation on Sunday to say a few more words. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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"GIVE THAT MAN A CIGAR!!!!!!!" Thank you......... |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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IH 5488
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OK I can’t speak for everybody but here is why it matters to me right wrong or indifferent. When I was a kid I remember hearing Butch Krieger say have to run that stock block. So when I looked at a 1066 or eight 6030 as a kid I was like OK they are running the block that tractor came with. I am a international guy but even if I was a John Deere guy that will give me another reason to root for that color tractor. Even now my favorite classes are hot farm, super farm, limited pro stock, and light pro stock. Do you know why they are because you can’t cross dress those classes and they are still tractor chassis. One of the main things that irritates me about cross dressing tractors and insults my intelligence. I grew up on a farm I currently farm I know what a tractor is and what came in those tractors. If you were going to have a John Deere because you simply don’t want to work on an international anymore or you don’t think you can make one run with the John Deere‘s then just put a John Deere hood on it and call what it is it’s a John Deere I think this is what irritates me so much about one Rob Russell put a big block John Deere but left the case IH hood. Because one I watched him from the time I was a little kid he always ran internationals and then either because he didn’t want to spend the money on him anymore and it is his money he threw up his hands and said nobody will know the difference I just put a John Deere block in this and keep pulling it as the workhorse magnum. I know it is not my money I can’t afford one of these things and I will be the first one to admit it I don’t know why it is such a crime to not like cross dressing tractors . But don’t put a fendt hood or a claas over a John Deere block and try to act like you’re adding color to this class you’re not it’s a John Deere block just put a John Deere hood on it run it as a John Deere and go on. I think we would all agree that John Deere is the king of the farming industry anymore that’s why so many people run John Deere‘s. But this argument that we are advancing the sport or we are adding color to the sport in my opinion is not the case . In my opinion this was the worst rule anybody ever came up with. This is just my opinion and everybody has one I am not going to change it so I think this whole argument of trying to get everybody to like it in my case is not going to happen . Now, I am a red guy but I will say I don’t like the rule on the superstock side either if you want to run a John Deere put a John Deere block in it and run it as a John Deere. I think there are one or two that are out there that are still running John Deere blocks in the super stock class diesel and alcohol now while I am not a John Deere fan do you know what I say when they come up the pull good for them. Lastly I may not like it but it is the way it is we all have to just accept it and move on I’m not changing my mind and I am sure that I am not the only one on that note getting ready to head to BG in a week and I can’t wait to drink some beer and smell some smoke. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 663 |
Totally understand the perspective, but to Jeremy's point why not the same feelings about any of the truck classes.
Side point: Claas and Fendt tractors had JD engines. Those 2 are not crossdressers. CP |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Registered: 06/16/2017 Posts: 66 |
I occurs to me, that the difference might be merely skin deep.
With only a few exceptions, John Deere pullers are green, and IH/Case IH pullers are red. However, Fords, Chevrolets, and Dodges come in all colors. These color variations even among vehicles with the same body style provides a needed variety in those classes. |
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To IH5488
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
No they weren’t running the block the tractor came with! That’s why I find the purist argument amusing personally. The most popular John Deere rear ends in use are 4010 and 4020, tell me what years either of those tractors came with an engine bigger than a 404. Show me the notice given by Deere that the 8.1 or big block Deere were factory replacements to a 6.2 or 6.6 Deere motor. I don’t give a rip if it bolts up when did John Deere actually name a factory replacement for those two rearend combinations. Even the 4455 John Deere’s came with the 7.6 John Deere aka the 466. It wasn’t until the mid to late 90’s that the 8.1 block was introduced into the JD line.
So if you take a 4020 rear end with the lighter 4010 axle housings and pair it with an 8.1 out of an 8110 John Deere but then put 7R sheet metal over it what do you have? You have a JD Frankenstock. Why do you think Deere hates pulling? I can pitch these scenarios that happen in pulling all the time. Define purist A. Engine and sheet metal need to match B. Engine and rear end need to match C. Engine, rear end and sheet metal have to match D. I don’t know my tractor history but like to thump my chest that at least it’s all John Deere (for the hyper purists out there) Again though why doesn’t the same purist mentality exist for the truck classes? Again this coming from a guy on a team that remained purist. Our engine and sheet metal match in a component chassis. It has been extremely challenging. If we had to do it all over again it wouldn’t take our team much convincing to go with something proven and durable and still run WFE sheet metal. To my original post though that I thank CPR for saving from the garbage can, this is a motor sport. In my opinion the greatest in the USA. I come down on the side of durability. If the vehicle is the star a driver needs the most durable piece he can afford to give the fans the show they want. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2023 05:44AM by OH1979er. |
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Re: To IH5488
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IH 5488
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OK let’s clarify a few things. First off on the automotive side I have owned a variety of different brands of vehicles so I guess that is why it doesn’t matter to me if all the trucks are using Chrysler hemi‘s. But on the farm side on the ag equipment side my grandpa ran red my dad did and I still do I own nothing green. Now back when I was a kid the 80s the 90s they did run replacement blocks it on the green side it was still a green rear end with a green block on the red side it was still a red rear end housing that was red and a red block they matched someone might’ve been a different series motor but it was red and red green and green . That is not the case anymore now you can mix and match whatever brand motor you want to with a truck rearend . As far as the fendt I am not 100% sure I googled Google and googled I cannot find the model that ever came with a John Deere the Claas I did find it so that is up for debate until it’s documented or at least a link shared where everybody can see it. Next the core of the whole problem is the cubic inches if the cubic inches would’ve been set at a reasonable level say 540 I don’t think you ever would’ve had this cross dressing problem but you can’t put the toothpaste back in the tube. Finally making a statement that nobody has a problem with it because the stands are full is a bunch of garbage I go to a tractor pull there are certain classes I like to watch it doesn’t mean that I like every class so making a blanket statement well the stands are full nobody has a problem with it that is not 100% accurate either. Finally we are never all gonna agree on this I am just one I don’t like having an idea jam down my throat and the attitude lately is if you don’t like cross dressing there must be something wrong with you. There is nothing wrong with me I just remember the way that used to be and forgive me it is a personal preference. |
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Re: To IH5488
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Registered: 01/07/2022 Posts: 102 |
Thank you for your honest reply. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Registered: 06/16/2017 Posts: 66 |
Like Charles, I completely understand your feelings, and to some degree share them.
However, my position on it is to remove myself, and look at the bigger picture. Honestly, "well informed" or "well educated" fans are the minority, and a group that is shrinking every day. While there is a core group who know what engine block should match that sheet metal, there is a much larger group (some who are already fans, others who puling as a whole is trying to attract) that don't know, and honestly don't care. They see shiny paint, black smoke, and the tractor goes fast. There is nothing wrong with either group. However, neither group (and especially the 2nd one) wants to watch a class that all look so much the same that they have a hard time telling some tractors from others. So, especially since this 2nd group is larger, and consists of the audience pulling needs to target for growth, variety, even if only on a cosmetic level is important. The "informed fans", rather than feeling insulted, should consider themselves privileged, to have the broader experience to be able to tell the difference. Informed fans can have a discussion amongst themselves. But should be happy that the other group exists, and helps to fund the sport we love. |
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Elephant in the room
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
680 cubes. Baby elephant: turbo size
I remember when PS was added as a lower cost, entry level class. 20 years later, Super Farm was added for the same reason. Then we had Light Pro, Limited Pro, 5.0 Pro, and actually the hot farm/pro farm/ light limited farm are all there for the same reason: Guys want to make power and smoke, but not have to mortgage the farm to do so. Proposal- set a future year, 2026, 27, etc to give people a heads up and give builders an opportunity to have plenty of engines/turbos. Better yet, find something that is already out there. Lower the cubes to something more brands can achieve like Europe has done, agree on turbo, and make that your Pro Stock class. Wanna have a difference between GN and RN with a lower ci limit Pro Stock class? Perhaps allow EFI and modern technologies at the GN level. I don't know if the 510 ci European limit is necessary; there is color at the 540 Light Pro limit. That would become your "Pro Stock" class. No need for Light/Limited etc. Less confusing for most fans. Folks love their 680s so this idea may not happen until $ forces it to, but at some point, imo, it will happen. Oh, and get rid of the stupid diesel-only rule. I'm not advocating for alcohol pro stocks, but anything with "stock" in the title should have a legal option for the fuel the tractor ran from the factory, ie as unlikely as it is, gasoline or propane/LP tractors should be legal if the tractor came from the factory that way. There should be no need for Colberg or Cespedes grandfather clauses. Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 08/09/2023 01:21AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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simple solution to longevity for the 10 pro
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B O X T U R B O |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 663 |
And when the selected supplier can't get everyone who needs one a charger?
CP |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Team one
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Because it’s fun when the “best of the best” gets it’s ass kicked by something that is supposed to be “inferior” regardless if they are factory made blocks or not I guess you could still call it a rivalry, no it doesn’t really matter but in some kind of way it still does. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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The same
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I guess like all the other parts I can't get you wait just like I am. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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simple solution to longevity for the 10 pro
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Good point,..however do you remember back in the Hypermax days when only a select few got the good ones? Yeah,... I do..... |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Registered: 03/31/2008 Posts: 762 |
Do you think it’s not happening now? I think it is. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Registered: 11/24/2019 Posts: 242 |
It's still posted down the page a ways. Maybe it got put back up. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 663 |
Huh... That's strange. Might've been a glitch in the matrix. This one is running so I just removed it to keep the conversation all in one place. Thanks for pointing that out.
CP |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Registered: 08/22/2019 Posts: 84 |
To OH1979er, I believe your message was a reply in the topic I started called "Pros and cons of crossdressing". I agree with a lot of what you are saying. There are some things that I feel change how people view this. First, pulling has "clicks" of fan. Some guys like spark plugs. They are there to watch 2wd and pro mod trucks. Some guys want to see tractors blow smoke, they want the ProStocks, etc. You have guys that want to see the diesel trucks. You have guys the like the mods. And yes you have the guys like me that like about everything. But even I still have classes I enjoy more over others. Some of these groups just do not care. The diesel tractor group is where you will seam to hear the most complaining from. Not that this is bad. Sports fans need to be passionate. Anybody who is a fan of pulling is good. I just feel like there is a particular group that cares about this more then the next.
As for comparing the antiques to something like a ProStock, Being a purist at an antique pull isn't same. The show going down the track isn't comparable. The atmosphere at a antique pull isn't the same. And it's easier to be a purist when there isn't as much trouble keeping them together. Now when the 1st, tube chassis, component, 24.5 double cuts, open rpm, cross dressing antique hits the track, I'll bet you know. Think about that "component antique" As for me, I really, really, really would like to see the block match the sheet metal. it's just personal preference. However, I feel there were rules made a long time ago that caused this to happen. I am not saying the rules that got made are bad. When a rule gets made, you don't know how will affect the class in 30 years. Do I think it's a cross dressing is bad thing, no. I love seeing the off brand tractors. Seeing the Fendt, New Holland, Agco, Massey, etc tractor is nice. And some of these tractors are beautiful. They make people talk. They make people share photos on social media. They are conversation pieces. When the Straight Outta Line tractor hit the track for the first time, I had a friend at the event send me a photo within 15 minutes of them unloading it with the message saying "check this thing out". Within 2 hrs, it was all over Facebook. I have seen that tractor on at least 2 flyers this year, probably more. Just because I may like them to be the same, I am still okay if they don't. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 663 |
Had to fact check myself and you are right about Fendt not using JD engines. They did use AGCO engines. Which means Detroit Series 40. Which was a... IH block base. So yay Lance Micek!
I used to care. I really did. But I want reliable, fixable, plenty of aftermarket support so a guy doesn't go down for months or years waiting. The time has come at the top levels for aftermarket power and make it the Brad Anderson vs Alan Johnson, but with hoods. CP |
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To CPR
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IH 5488
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I wanted to let you know that you earned my respect today. You were wrong about something and were a big enough man to admit it. To many times in this day in age people will get plumb nasty even when their point of view is wrong and they know it but are just itching to fight. I don’t think we will agree on the cross dressing issue and that is okay. Everyone has a right to their opinion it is a free country. I have never met you in person and don’t get to your portion of the country to hear you often. I did make it to the Pullers Championship and who knows maybe some day our paths will cross. |
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Re: To CPR
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 663 |
Thanks for the kind words. I want to be accurate if I can be. Disagreements can be fun because it keeps us thinking and talking about something we love. There's no need to be nasty about it. Please say hello if our paths cross!
CP |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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they exist
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Be assured my friend, -the Antique components are in Tn.,Ky. and other places. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 663 |
Agree. There is some wildly cool stuff going on in the antique world.
CP |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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“Non C-D is why lt/ltd pro and llss are the fastest growing classes in pulling.”
Wrong. They are simply the latest fad for more power on a budget. Only problem is the budget notion flew out the window pretty quickly. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,522 |
I'm my view it matters.the best thing in ss the past 20 years was shramek.best thing in pro the last 20 years was cope...
Reason it doesn't apply to trucks is because that's not the way the class started,simple as that... The tractor classes would be dead to the average fan in 2 seasons if the announcers told what the tractor was powered by.fans would lose interest very quick. If it didn't matter why not announce what engine is powering every hooded tractor, instead of what the driver does for a career. Non c-d is why lim/lt pro and llss are the fastest growing classes in pulling. Could been all prevented 45 years ago with a 540 cube limit across the board |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Peter T.
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Patches I like everything you said but in reality do you really think if there was a 540 cubic inch limit that every tractor would abide? I can't think of a single time where a tractor has been checked for cubic inch and maybe I'm not old enough to go back to the old days. I'm not implying that there may be some pullers that would stretch the rules but i'm sure there are. Rules are only as good as the enforcement of said rules. |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Dan Kirby
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I personally agree with the top post. I couldn’t care less what’s under your hood because I’ve been the guy for years trying to make an orange tractor compete and run with the red and green guys. It’s not easy and usually ends up costing way more. That being said, probably the number one question I get from people over 40 is “what engine are you running?” To those guys it matters. When they see my 210 it reminds them of a time in their life either when they had one, had a parent that had one, or a family member that had one. They want to know if it’s still “pure”.
On the flip side of that, I’ve never once had anyone under 25 years old come up and ask me what motor I’m running. They walk up and usually ask how much power is making, fancy paint job, how much does it cost to build a tractor, etc. I could take all of the sheet metal off the tractor and 99% would have no idea what block they are looking at nor do they care! They see a big turbo with shiny parts and that’s all they need to make them happy. The fact is you’re never going to make everyone happy no matter which side you are on. The question is in 25 years who’s going to be taking over and carrying the torch of truck and tractor pulling? Is it the guy in his 40-60s or is it that 18-25 year old that wants to make a ton of power, go as fast as they can, and do it with the most reliable parts on the market? Or maybe it’s neither? |
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Re: Does "cross dressing" matter
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Posts: 112 |
If I walk up to you in the pits, it’s to find out if Victoria has anything from the Amanda Colonies Bakery with her 
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