06:46:31pm, Saturday, April 27, 2024
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John Young's front tire
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
Watching the broadcast, if that had bounced a few feet left, we'd have people in lawn chairs hurt bad. Wheel tethers, baby. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Just asking
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What are wheel teachers hooked to?
Reason I'm asking is because the spindle and hub broke off the axle. If the teachers attach to the hub, the teachers would have been along for the bouncy ride. Also, there was another space behind the cement barriers about 6 feet wide, with guardrail barrier, before the lawn chair seating. It was still a scary deal, and some places don't have that second buffer zone. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
It's premature to talk about wheel tethers... sure that front wheel reached cruising altitude and flight attendants on the rim started serving drinks on the tire... however we need to wait until somebody is badly hurt or killed before we actually address tethers.
To just asking... tethers should be attached to the chassis. I'm no engineer but there are numerous ways to design one... hollow front spindle with a tether through it tied to the chassis or front axle (if the axle is rigidly attached to the frame). Brake rotor style with tethers going from the "rotor" on the front hub to the chassis. We got lucky again. At some point that luck might run out. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Just asking
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Like I pointed out.
Brake rotor style wouldn't help anything, but add mass. I'd like to see what monster trucks, and Indy cars use. Sounds like NAPSCAR needs them too, since they have had some ugly wheel separation incidents. Something needs done for sure! |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Brake rotor style usually has 3 or more retainers that surround/retain the "rotor" (which is part of the hub assembly). Think of the "retainers" like mini brake calipers that are spaced 120 degrees apart and mounted to a ring to make a small subassembly. The retainer ring assembly (subassembly) is still tethered to the chassis. When the spindle breaks the rotor is retained in the subassembly and the subassembly is retained to the chassis by the tethers. If the hub breaks... same thing. Everything is still tethered to the frame. The only way that wouldn't work is if ALL the wheel studs failed and the rim separated from the "rotor"/hub assembly. I'm not saying that's not possible, but I've never seen a frontend failure like that. I've only seen the spindle or the hub break as well as a very rare front axle failure where the axle isn't rigidly attached to the frame.
Again, I'm no engineer but there are very simple solutions that are already implemented in other motorsports. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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josh
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Sprint cars now have front tethers. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 11/24/2019 Posts: 242 |
If they do, and I'm not disputing that, then they aren't keeping the wheels with the machine. Saw several pictures of sprint car wrecks last night where the car was airborne missing one or both front tires. One was a picture from Knoxville. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
For front wheels on tractors, could tethers be attached somewhere on the skid bars?
The sport has been lucky somebody hasn't been seriously injured or killed. The first time it happens, especially if there is one or more fatalities, the sanctioning body and promoter will be sued out of existence. This is not an unforeseeable event and other forms of racing have mandated them. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Fan 2
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I seem to recall an Indy tire clearing the fence and flying past a packed grandstand a couple months ago! Tethers are not100% safe either. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,347 |
True. Also true IndyCar is actively looking at tether improvements following the incident. Also true the lady who had her car damaged got a brand new car courtesy of Roger Penske. Also true that John Young's front tire was closer to spectators than the Indy car tire incident this past May. Also true we've had both flying front and rear tires (Whitworth at Gordyville), for years, and to date no sanctionin body has acted. Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/21/2023 02:26AM by The Original Michael. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Well said. It's a known problem and the sanctioning bodies refuse to act. That won't look good in court when it does go poorly. It will also won't look great for sanctioning bodies when the lawyers bring up the fact that there are already engineered solutions out there that could have been implemented.
I hope it never happens but I fear that it's inevitable. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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NTPA made a effort to address the problem about 15 years ago by implementing the mandatory loops attached to the frame inside of front tires. I'm not saying it was a solution but it was addressed. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
Yes, it was addressed, but it's still happening. It didn't solve the problem and they refuse to act. Honestly, it make's it even worse... the ski bars prove that the organizations know it's an issue. There's no possible way they can plead ignorance. A lawyer will ask if they knew...clearly the answer will be YES. Then he will ask if the ski bars solved the problem... NO! Rather the lawyer will ask if it's happened since the ski bar rule was implemented. The answer will clearly be YES. Then they will show clip after clip from wild rides and wreck videos where tires went flying even after ski bars were mandated. A jury or judge will find that they knew about the issue, they didn't properly address it and it continued to happen and they turned a blind eye to it. No way for the orgs to pretend to be ignorant of the issue.
If any insurance company sticks around after that payout/lawsuit they will mandate tethers or they wont cover the sport. One last thing, the insurance will only cover so much, once negligence is shown on the part of the org the payout will be big and that extra money will come from somewhere. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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They made a effort to minimize the amount of tires flying off of tractors, example being Roll cages didn't stop tractors from rolling over but it did minimize the risk of the driver being hurt, drivers still are and can be hurt in a rollover but steps were taken to minimize the possibility. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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PDT
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Those are not to keep wheels from flying/breaking off. Those are to prevent the tractor from digging into the track and being folded in half when a wheel does break off and it gets hit by the sled. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 542 |
Enclosed front fenders made of 1/4” tread plate , problem solved, but dang that would be ugly |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Badgerfan
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Just seen the video I can't believe no one in the front chairs attempted to move out of the way. Maybe with the room they weren't worried but from the angle of the video I would have been moving.
Having spectators that close in my opinion is also a issue. I see it at other events even with people and kids sitting on the barriers. I was at one this year a lady with a stroller and young kid were at the end of the barriers but standing inside of them so they could see. Had a few tractors end up going that way, that event used all of the track and then some. Makes no sense to me. I know it would be an expense to the promoters but we should also look into fencing above the cement barricade for these situations similar to the race tracks. Or somehow make them mobile and the associations carry them along like the banners. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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FansOnly
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I'll say it louder for the kids in the back.. COMPONENT CHASSIS SHOULD BE MANDATED!! |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Posts: 65 |
Yeah....because the front ends of ags and components are so different......
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
lol That'd be fine as long as there would be a spec on the COMPONENT CHASSIS. OH OH OH OH! |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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drawbar
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Yeah, lets do that and forget about it effecting your drawbar height.... Don't say it won't affect it, because it will. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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History
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Re: John Young's front tire
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plb
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I saw the whole thing happen and the first thing I thought of was his tire pressure was pretty high the way it bouced after it broke off. If the tire pressure was low enough for the skid pads to work, the wheel might of stayed on or at least not bounce so much. Maybe there should be a max air pressure for the front tires??? |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 03/30/2008 Posts: 191 |
You'd have to have someone check it right as they got ready to pull on the track. Air it up in the shade of the trailer then pull it out in the sun will make a drastic difference in air pressure. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 11/24/2019 Posts: 242 |
At BG the drawbar is measured when leaving the track. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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day later
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Probly front skid bars weren't quite to spec as easy as that spindle snapped off ! |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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PDT
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Again, the skid bars are not intended too prevent spindles from breaking or wheels from falling off. They are to catch the front end and prevent it from digging in the track and rolling the tractor over. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 08/02/2019 Posts: 43 |
You are not going to prevent every incident. Things break its motorsports. Things blow up and break. Except the worst and compensate. Distance from the track would be my concern. Don't expect high hp to not go bad and be sitting close to it. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 04/03/2016 Posts: 772 |
Probably the best response yet or ever! |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,526 |
This isn't about preventing every incident. Everyone knows that isn't possible, and that isn't what this is about. This is simply about preventing a known issue that has happened countless times. This is simply about implementing a known solution to a curable problem.
Accidents will always happen. This accident happens repeatedly and when you ignore it that is negligence. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Whatever the primarily reason was for the intro of the skid bar things, either for the purpose to prevent that the vehicle can dig into the ground and perhaps fold and/or be able to skid safely without deccelerating excessively, or if it was to lower the ultimate load peaks on front wheel hubs and decrease the probability that wheels are flying away. Unintendent the respective secondarily purpose comes automatically as a nice byproduct.
Regarding the typically upcoming questions of lawyers and their technical consultants, it's fair to mention that even if the intro of the skid bars haven't prevent that wheels fly off at all, but I would guess that an adequate performed statistic about all known event since ever, will lead to a significantly visible drop of the probability of such incidents since the skid bars had been introduced. Stop binary thinking and go for probabilities. And this lead us to an IMO quite important aspect today: having such statistics on demand already in the drawer, for the purpose which probably comes one day. From daily business with safety stuff, I learned it's still an advantage having statistics for each item already somewhere. Just imagine if some lawyers are starting to ask (for whatever reason) things alike "...can you show us how the typically average mean and peak velocities during pulling action have been developed within the last 20 years?!..." Or "... what are the typical velocity to pulling distance relations? can u show some graphs? ..." I mean, is somehow at least a bit of sophisticated data acc this style available in some backoffices? At least in a poison cabinet of some sanctioning body? If not, then this would be an entry point for lawyers as well: the negligence to consider data acquisition and eval of the very few most important technical variables, to stay on an adequate level regarding HSE matters. Before starting to throw rocks at me, can maybe somebody give a glimpse of how things like that are usually be handled in other motorsport categories? I would assume some people can confirm that there is somehow equivalent available at other businesses. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 664 |
In other motorsports, maybe.
Let's take your thought though. What should the spec from contact patch to ski be? What size tire width? What sidewall height? What air pressure in it? What ratio of rim to tire width since that also affects it's compression rate? What if I have front suspension? Spring rate mandated? Shock bound and rebound rate mandated? When and where does it end? CP |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Luckily thats not my task. Playing with thousands of hp infront of people, with not appropriate measures for barriers, shielding, restraint devices etc isn't the right way to provide safety for people, kids and familys. I wouldn't say that it's impossible to update some measures so that even assurance companies and authorities will be impressed in a good way. And I also assume that it's A LOT of effort, which need a lot of smart people to develop this, in convention with pullers and their concerns, about e.g. applicableness, and tech people about how they're able to check/proof it. But first of all, is the community willing to start this walk? Or will they, as everytime, follow the call of people which say that it has been end up well all the time, and it's just not worth to be proactive in such a sophisticated way. My very own impressions from the time when I was a volunteer (and quit in anger) in such a community is: don't even start to write down your ideas for proposals, it's not the paper (or bytes) worth, because either the others can't follow your tech argumentation, or they just smell effort only without any other benefit. Or your proposal is even against some commercial interest of one or more of the involved participants. |
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Re: John Young's front tire
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Pllnfn
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This is exactly right. Too many pulls where people are seated the same distance away as they were years back when it was out of field tractors going down the track. There's one pull that I love going to here in Nebraska but pickups gobble up all of the available seating space hours in advance. The best seating available is in a bag chair about 30 feet from the white line with a 1 1/2' pile of bladed off dirt and a rope in between. Message to promoters: Don't invite the big boys to come to your town without thinking about crowd safety first. |
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