10:43:39am, Wednesday, May 14, 2025
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Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,661 |
The NFMS a few years ago decided to combine the DSS and the 650 alcohol SS into one class. What was a great idea at the time has become the graveyard of the DSS class. What a disappointment to watch the DSS not make the call. It used to be that 40% of the DSS couldn't make the second session of a 2 day event, now at this event 50% couldn't make the first session. The cold weather I would have thought would favor the diesel over the alcohol tractors, it didn't. Something needs to be done to save this class, leadership needs to become leaders ( a person that makes the hard decisions ) and fix the class. Now before anyone says that I must dislike the class, quite the contrary I have always liked the class. That's why this down hill path is not enjoyable for me. Please fix the class before it's to late. On a side note I'm sure I will get a list of all the DSS tractors that are in the country, my question is when and where are they pulling? Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2025 02:54AM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 08/16/2021 Posts: 392 |
Agree, I love the DSS class but at this point I'm not sure it can be saved. At any given pull you're lucky to see 3-5 of them make it down the track. In my opinion combining the diesel and alkys at least makes it look like a full class of tractors. If you separate them the diesel class is pathetic most of the time.
I do hope that Adam Bauer gets his out this summer to bring some excitement to the class. He's about the only guy crazy enough to build a DSS at this point. I'm not sure there is anything that can save the DSS class. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2025 03:57AM by BrandonA. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Posts: 1,233 |
Here's a list tractor of multi-charger diesel supers. Should be close to accurate as I hadn't updated it in a bit. Some of these tractors are under 540 cubes and only run a single or twin charger setup so keep that in mind.
Brent Yaron Hooked Up Pulling Productions hookeduppullingproductions@gmail.com Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2025 06:21AM by Brent Yaron. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Larry Getz
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What a very darn nice list! |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Ronald Stiver
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Whatever happened to the 1066 of Randy Feldkamp from Michigan? That was tractor that was promising in the early 2000's and came up missing? |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Moderator Registered: 03/19/2018 Posts: 715 |
Still in his barn.
CP |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 12/26/2019 Posts: 92 |
One problem is that it only runs on the Grand National level anymore. There are several good running tractors on that list, but they can't run at the Grand National level.
How many region pulls list the DSS class next summer? |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Valid
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I agree with what you’re saying as far as some guys not being able to run at the grand national level. However, at state level here in Ohio, Super Stock is absolutely laughable and is an aweful show. Their have literally been nights where a limited pro gets in the class and puts it on the field. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 03/14/2010 Posts: 79 |
Both classes are dead, they just don't know it yet. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Stick a fork in it
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I'm glad this was brought up. That class was BY FAR the weeks worst class. I love alky super, but it's just as bad as the DSS. That list posted above might be a list of who calls themselves DSS, but be real, there is about 8 real good running DSS tractors on that list. And they are the same 8 tractors that have been at NFMS for the last 30 years. Just like the same 6 alky tractors. The whole class, on both sides is stale, boring, and a waste of time. NFMS needs to drop the class, or at the very least go to one session, until they can figure out a way to inject some new blood and a little bit of variety into it. There are many other classes that deserve a 2nd class instead of HSS. And could we just call it SS and stop repeating "The Dual of the Fuels" over and over again? It's ridiculous. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 01/04/2022 Posts: 114 |
8 is pretty low for how many good ones are in there. I could count double digits of good running supers |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,661 |
Sure there's a maybe 6 more, however they don't hook at many national events. And I would like see your list. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2025 02:19PM by Dick Morgan. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Stick a fork in it
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And if they all apply and pull at the NFMS then that's one thing, but until they do, it's time to get rid of it at that event. Too many other deserving classes. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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...
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They only take six, people quit trying to go when the same six gets in every time combing the class hurt DSS numbers |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,597 |
Sorry, but that's not how it happened. They had no choice other than to combine the class because they COULDN"T get 12 good DSS to apply. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Bullet
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Sure missed seeing the Bullet. Any idea if Lustiks will be out this summer? |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 06/16/2017 Posts: 295 |
Detune them 1000 hp so they’ll live and go down the track. Lighten the sled up and it’ll appear to be the same show. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,597 |
What is the point of the class then? Why have a class with multi-turbos that has less horsepower than some single turbo classes? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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OG
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The class died because whomever the top 4 or 5 runners at various times throughout the last few decades resisted any rules changes that limited the class. It made the number of competitors who could/would spend the time/money to compete in a class that requires a complete rebuild every 3-5 passes. The National organization always cowered to whomever the "cool kid" was at the time for the last 30+ years, oh and they AWLAYS DID WHAT EVER JA REQUESTED. It's dead, it's never coming back. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,642 |
Dick,like myself the only ss class your in love with is the late 80s to late 90s.the hyper block killed the ss class.took time ,but that was the major death blow |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Moderator Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 1,661 |
I agree, that and ridiculous cubic inches. Once again total lack of leadership. Dick Morgan www.PULLOFF.com Independent Pulling News |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 06/16/2017 Posts: 295 |
So which is it Dick, you said my idea of detuning them is stupid but yet the hyper block ruined the class. You do realize without after market blocks there wouldn’t be a class over 3000 hp. Super stocks has always been a class of 8-10 elite tractors then a bunch of others that run older not update equipment just out having fun is the nicest way I can put it. For whatever reason people are willing to spend more on pros than supers |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,597 |
My father never said detuning them was stupid. He never responded you your comment. I responded to your detuning comment. Also, I never said detuning them was stupid. I simply asked "What is the point of the class then? Why have a class with multi-turbos that has less horsepower than some single turbo classes? It's a simple question and an honest question. I'm not saying detuning is dumb, I'm just asking why even bother with the class if you can make more power with a single charger. Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 06/16/2017 Posts: 295 |
Sorry for misunderstanding. The point is even at 4000 hp theyll put a good show on. They have a completely different sound than single charger class. With 30,5’s they look different than any single charger class. Plus maybe if they would actually stay together you might get more tractors back in it |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Anderson Farms & Trucking
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Patches I'm right there with ya, I remember back in the early 90s when I had my D21 " Titty Sqeezin Fool " , it was competitive, those were the fun days and you didn't have to spend a small fortune. IMO those were the best of times when the Super Stock classes were 5500lbs -- 7500lbs -- 9500lbs. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,642 |
is remember your tractor well.in my opinion the best,most exciting tractor,the one people in the stands were rooting for was brian shramek youngblood.people didn't give a hoot who brian shramek is,didn't care anything about him as a person.they people that love the sport were in love with youngblood,simply because it used a real allis chalmers block under the hood.they were rooting for him,and at the same time rooting against hyper blocks.same thing in pros with cope against the recast ih and deere blocks..if the massey guys had a readily available Perkins block and half a dozen of them could work together and share data the deere and ih reign of pro would be over in 1 winter.the v8 architecture would dominate |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Anderson Farms & Trucking
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Patches,I agree with you, I love the V8 massey's, I love bein original. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 02/23/2012 Posts: 575 |
The V8 billet block is already here |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,597 |
The list Brent Yaron posted sure looks impressive on paper.... BUT.... How many of these Diesel Supers could beat a top tier Light Pro at even weight (8000lbs)? Thirty? Twenty Five? Twenty? How many could beat a Pro Stock at 8000lbs? Fifteen? Ten? Five?
How many would be able to run in a pulloff against the Light Pro or Pro Stock? Half? The Diesel Super currently has about a dozen tractors at or near the top tier, sadly you NEVER see them all at any one event. As for the Alcohol side of the equation? What are the dyno numbers compared with five years ago? How about ten? Are they making many advancements in power? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Face in crowd
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There are more than several on that list that would be 50-100' behind a top running DSS on a power track. But put all of those outdated or overpowered older DSS in the same class against each other and you would have a very entertaining class! There was a time when the Outlaws had two tiers of diesel supers that ran exactly like that. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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mc
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as fun as it is to watch triple bypass and the few others that are up there , who can afford or wants to afford the cost of that engine to keep up, then if not they are mid pack or lower never going to win.crappier prize money no chance to compete for a championship, so then it becomes a very expensive lets go just for something to do on the weekend, although if would be fun as f&#@ thats for sure. that engine design does not help for big class numbers at GN level. should super stock be changed to twins ? thats above my pay grade, as a spectator i don't want it to die. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Pterosaur's T.
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There was some rumor that the Outlaws were going to go to G-trim turbo limit rule on Supers, don't know if that would help but it would be a start too try and limit some of the spending and make for more durable setups. Don't know if they really put that into play or not, have not heard. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 03/25/2008 Posts: 2,597 |
I asked this question above and I'll keep asking...
What is the point of the Superstock class then? Why have a class with multi-turbos that has less horsepower than some single turbo classes? Jake Morgan Owner, PULLOFF.COM Independent Pulling News This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated. Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Peter T.
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Haven't seen dyno numbers but a multi charger with G-trim turbos would probably still have more than some Pros. Probably not the top Pros that push to the limit and don't care about cost but probably most of the field. My opinion would be a Super could stay together for most of a season with G-trim turbos but nobody wants to try and be left behind by the guys trying to spend there way through the season. So if the Outlaws implemented the rule it could be a good class and good season of Superstock pulling in the west. Don't know if they did. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Anonymous
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The super stock class is expensive yes, but I think it’s dying because a harder sell to new pullers to get into the class. Super stocks are difficult to run and maintain well compared to some other classes in today’s pulling. It’s not a class you can just up and buy into, and automatically go do well. A lot of pullers these days don’t want to deal with high maintenance vehicles, they only want to drive it down the track. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Money man
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The guys with lots of money are building pro stock tractors it's the the big dollar class |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,501 |
This is from another current thread and not directly SS, but if the pro stocks all dropped to a 5.0 charger, that would make the PS class less expensive and provide some differentiation with the super stocks. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Under_Pressure
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Bingo. Most high-level diesel tractor class pullers today are either: a) guys with lots of money who can and will write a $500k plus check to go pulling with a turn-key operation, or b) guys who actually engineer and build their own tractors but also are the ones who build (and tune, and sometimes maintain) tractors for the guys in "a," and so they pull what their customers pull and keep their own stuff as close to what they sell as possible to use as a test bed. I guess maybe also a third group that assemble and work on their own tractors but aren't engine builders/tuners and use proven setups from other builders. None of these want something that is more temperamental or high maintenance than necessary for an approximate level of performance. One particular exception is Ross/ Triple Bypass- Colin is basically a group "b" guy who wanted to take on the challenge of DSS even though most customer work is going to be for some sort of single charger class. We see the results when a guy like that really decides to make a good running DSS his mission, but unfortunately there aren't many out there.
IMO the idea of DSS needs to go away and it needs to just go back to HSS, diesel and alcohol together. The focus needs to be on saving SS period. It is one of the foundational classes of pulling- it has the longest history and actually offers something different from the endless parade of single-charger diesels and blown hemis. Pulling as a sport should make its survival and growth a point of emphasis, and that starts with realizing keeping the class split is benefitting no one. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Moderator Registered: 07/06/2008 Posts: 1,501 |
Winner winner chicken dinner. You are 100% correct, sir. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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lewis c
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CUT each class back to make them all more affordable pulling has got ridiculous .I have had 3 modified stock tractors and 3 llss tractors all six of those put together didnt cost as much as people are spending on one now and some of those tractors has won points championships tenn and ky state championships. The sled can make any class look good without all that over spending BRING BACK SOME APPLE TO APPLE PULLING AND SE JUST HOW GOOD THE BIG MONNIE BAGS ARE |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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Registered: 04/04/2008 Posts: 1,642 |
Jake there is no point,ANYMORE,just the name "Super stock" meant more power,more action more impressive sounding exhaust.we have all agreed that in pulling heyday ss was above ps to fans,they appealed to the senses of sight,sound,and the feeling of power..its totally flipped now ps rules,Mccormick and shramek proved that a pro can be extremely competitive in ss,and could probably win a points series b ased solely on durability..hell cespedes done that in ostpa..I'll admit it's a show,ok,and in ss current form,and with social media at every fans fingertips,you can't predict who's coming to the local pull,but you can sure see who's blowed up and not coming.in every sit down interview by a dss puller it's the same story from each one parts aren't living,major breakage,not enough hooks.so ya back the boost power drops and they look worse ever moreso than pros.if the nfms couldn't field a class,it shoulda been dropped,period !
.anymore a dss isn't far from switching to another class,what other choice do they have? Cause the ntpa sure isnt/hasn't done a dam thing to keep dss at the top of the pecking order.they chose the pros when ss split.plain and simple |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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mc
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more than one turbo is super stock, some of them like Ross's can be in the " NEW UNLIMITED DIESEL SUPER STOCK CLASS " that's right folks a NEW GRAND NATIONAL CLASS, UNLIMITED DIESELS. and those that want to ease back a little and still run will be in the revamped super stock class that still has more power than the pro stocks. |
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Re: Some observations from the NFMS. Part 2
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heavy superstock/ps reality
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PPL basically supports the alcohol HSS class only,...yes,... DSS are allowed but given no adjustments to enter. Yes, a couple DSS have had limited success competing in a primarily alcohol class (Payne and Ross) but it's not ever going to be something that lasts for the long run which long run should be what is considered as success for everyone involved from the competitors to the promoter to the fans.
NTPA only had 5 venues for the HSS class in 2024 with Tomah and BG as 2 of the 5. NTPA only had 6 tractors make the full circuit with 2 being Chizek and 2 being Gansemer. So 66% of the class running the circuit were only 2 teams. This needs a serious discussion as to the viability of being considered a National Championship class . As for the DSS class,... the elephant in the room that nobody wants to discuss is the Ross tractor,...it moved the bar on HP and lowered the bar on durability at the same time. So the rest of the class raised their own individual HP bars and then lowered their durability at the same time. These actions have been catastrophic overall to the class for parity and numbers of passes without a tow tractor being summoned several times during the class increased exponentially. There is no answer for this class . It is what it is.. Now for the PS class it seems to be maintaining itself as for now with a recent influx of apparently big money guys that like the bought not built business model,..which is cool since we are still a free Constitutional Republic. The longevity of the class is in question as the bought not built mentality is basically,.. run it like there's unlimited part$ and labor and get all the likes on social media while fist pumping for the fans,...LOL. Time will only tell if the bought not built guys stay in it for the long run,...as they are still rather new as of the moment. 
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