Pro and cons of crossdressing August 01, 2023 10:37AM
It was brought up in a recent post talking about Lt Pros going component that they shouldn't be able to run different sheet metal than the block. So let's really think about this. How good or bad is it. Let's start with the cons.

Cons:
-It's wierd. You want to paint your John Deere big block blue so the tractor looks like a New Holland. Why? Just build a Deere.
-And when they announce that the tractor has a different block at an event, what does the crowd really think. Are the purests dissapointed to the point it takes some of the enjoyment out of going.
-It's also the easy way. Why spend the time to make an different brand to work, when so many guys have got the IH and Deere engines figured out.

Pros:
-It is easier and cheaper. If your spending all the time and money to build a tractor, why not go with something that is tried and true, espically if it cost less.
-It adds color to the class. You get to see all different brands and sheet metal. Does everyone really want to see a red/green show?
-If the tractor is a componenet chassis, how much of the tracgtor is actually a tractor. At that point, there really isn't too many OEM parts on it. Does it really matter?

I have always been torn on this topic. I truley want to see the block match the sheet metal, but I also don't want to see a class of 20 Pros and 17 of them be green. I grew up on Deere's and I still want to see all brands pull. And to be perfectly honest, some of the most beautiful tractors out there, aren't the red a green ones(my opinion). When Hart's built there charcoal Massey Pro, I thought it was one of the nicest looking tractors out there. I was at an event where he won with that tractor and the guy beside me was bummed that a Deere didn't get it. He had no idea what motor was in it. I knew, but the average fan had no idea. At the end of the day, on a component tractor, does it really matter? I LOVE the guys like Carlton Cope who dare to be different and build some bad ass machines. But I also really like guys coming out with all these different looking tractors. Come on, Lanc Micek's High Hopes tractor, the Lemke's Staight Outta Line, Craig Ladwig's Fendt, etc. These tractors are beautiful and draw people to them, including me. And look at the 2wd class. 95% are Hemis and all different bodies on them. Super Stock Diesel trucks, same thing. Mostly Cummins powered. I do feel that allowing crossdressing has hurt some technological developments. Look back in the day when guys did run all different brands. Guys worked with the brand they wanted. Then when the green and red guys got it figured out, people started switching. I get it, everyone wants to win. Look at when the super stock guys went to alcohol, it wasn't a big deal until they got it figured out. Look at the big cummins v-8s(there could be a whole other argument on these). They were not perfect, but they got them figured out. Would things be different if someone figured out a Allis block and dominated with it? Who knows? I attend 30 pulls a year, at the end of the day, I like the color and different tractors. I can handle it,but it bettere be a component chassis. Just my 2 cents.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 01, 2023 10:41AM
I believe the Biden regime has a program to pay for the cross gender tractors Winking
Just help promote there agenda lol

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 01, 2023 12:13PM
I remember when there were a lot of different colors in the 80's when I started to attend pulls and even though I rooted for the Deere's, I liked seeing different colors.
As for being a purist,. is there actually such a thing ? Even if's a Deere, IH, Ford or etc. and it has the right color block for the sheet metal , it's not the same tractor as it was, coming off the assembly line anyway, so it didn't really mean anything to me if one color beats another color. To me , what one color does in a pro or super stock tractor class, doesn't translate to being a good "farm" tractor.
I had my favorites , as far as pullers and their tractors, and some of them sure weren't Deeres. There was a Massy with 2805 sheet metal back in the 80's , (Dale Monreal , IIRC correctly), and I rooted for him even when he beat every Deere in the class and I'm no MF fan..
So, if cross dressing , imo, brings out more colors, so be it, I think it's a good thing. To me, it's no longer really a Deere v Massy v Ford v Allis or IH or what have you, it's one pullers wallet verses another pullers wallet.
Just my $.02.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 01, 2023 02:11PM
All this bickering should be laid to rest over component/ Ag chassis and cross dressing. At the end of the day nobody switches brands on their personal equipment because what performs on the track the best! The theory of cross dressing started back in the late 80s when magnum tractor line came out and that metal was allowed in pulling using a ih block! As a sport have we've not crossed a 30+ year old hurdle where some of you folks are still tripping over?? This whole idea where sheetmetal should match the block is from the stone ages. I'm purists but I enjoy seeing folks using different colors and different brands. It is a good look for the sport by having different colors no matter what the heartbeat is! To much emphasis is put in this sport trying to build it up and make it grow by the old theory jd vs ih vs ac vs Ford! Where the sport has failed is emphasizing the sport's different personalities and marketing those personalities! Other motorsports have figured this out years ago and have capitalized on it! Nobody cares if John Force is in a Ford or chevy or dodge. Fans are attracted simply for his personality and his mouth sells tickets! Point is fans pick their driver identify with that driver and that's who they Root for. This win on Sunday sell on Monday went out the door decades ago! You wanna see pulling go to the masses or do you wanna see it stuck as a niche market? Keep this old attitude of engine match the sheetmetal ag chassis vs component and you'll have the same outcome as we've had the last 30 years which is virtually little to no growth!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/01/2023 02:32PM by GirbachA.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 02, 2023 12:48AM
Quote
GirbachA
I'm purists but I enjoy seeing folks using different colors and different brands.
It's time to admit to yourself that you're not a purist. IT's OK... but be honest with yourself. If you saw someone say they weren't gay, but they do like watching dudes hook up... you'd laugh at that comment. That's exactly what your comment looks like to a brand loyal purist. You're not a purist... time to admit it.

Quote
GirbachA
Where the sport has failed is emphasizing the sport's different personalities and marketing those personalities!
I couldn't disagree more. The tractors and trucks are the stars... NOT the drivers. Look at Monster trucks, my kids know the truck names and don't give a rip about who's driving them. They couldn't name a single driver in any monster truck series but they can name a ton of trucks. Puling is EXACTLY the same... the vehicles draw the fans, not the drivers. I've seen enough pulling driver interviews in my life to know that if pulling is going to try to make the drivers the stars they should shut the lights off and hang the closed sign in the window... either that or they better give EVERY driver some seriously intensive PR training/coaching... and even then, how many Farmers and Truckers are known for their dynamic personalities?

Quote
GirbachA
You wanna see pulling go to the masses or do you wanna see it stuck as a niche market?
The dream of taking pulling to the masses is about as realistic as the WNBA becoming the largest sport in the world. Pulling will NEVER gain ANY type of mass acceptance. It doesn't matter how it's promoted or how much money is dumped into the sport it will never grow in urban and suburban markets. It won't even be accepted in all rural markets. I know farmers that despise the sport for numerous reasons. The ceiling for this sport is not a whole lot higher than it currently is. Talk of some magical next level is unrealistic. The sport should be focusing on sustaining this level. Sorry to be a downer, but lets be realistic about how far this motorsport can grow.

Brand loyalty was one of this motorsports biggest assets and it tossed it in the trash in some classes. It's funny how the classes that don't allow cross dressing seem to be healthier than those that do... go figure.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/02/2023 12:50AM by Jake Morgan.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 02, 2023 03:05PM
Stop calling them JD and IH blocks…It’s a Lemke, or a Chaos or a Eburg, just the same as a Keith Black or Arias, it was originally based on a certain block but has it’s own identity from its builder now!

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 02, 2023 04:00PM
Quote
Jake Morgan
Quote
GirbachA
I'm purists but I enjoy seeing folks using different colors and different brands.
It's time to admit to yourself that you're not a purist. IT's OK... but be honest with yourself. If you saw someone say they weren't gay, but they do like watching dudes hook up... you'd laugh at that comment. That's exactly what your comment looks like to a brand loyal purist. You're not a purist... time to admit it.

That's a little out of line, Jake. While Andy may not technically be a purist, he is old-school. I tend to agree with him on this subject. While I love seeing variety, I also understand that, especially today, as much as I would hate to admit it, IH and JD engine platforms are not only more popular, but better suited to extreme horsepower use.

That being said, anyone who knows me, knows that I bleed orange. Should I suddenly experience the kind of financial windfall that would allow me to build my dream puller, it wouldn't be a surprise to learn that it would be and Allis Chalmers D-21 Pro-Stock. Also, because I'm old-school, like Andy, I would do everything in my power to make it competitive with either using either an Allis 426, or SISU engine platform. Granted, both of these options are more difficult and more expensive. Doing this would mean a lot to a couple of specific types of fans. First, the die-hard Allis fan would appreciate that I stayed brand loyal. Second, the gearhead fan would be interested based on the fact that it is not a "cookie-cutter" or the same as everyone else.

Quote
Jake Morgan
Quote
GirbachA
Where the sport has failed is emphasizing the sport's different personalities and marketing those personalities!
I couldn't disagree more. The tractors and trucks are the stars... NOT the drivers. Look at Monster trucks, my kids know the truck names and don't give a rip about who's driving them. They couldn't name a single driver in any monster truck series but they can name a ton of trucks. Puling is EXACTLY the same... the vehicles draw the fans, not the drivers. I've seen enough pulling driver interviews in my life to know that if pulling is going to try to make the drivers the stars they should shut the lights off and hang the closed sign in the window... either that or they better give EVERY driver some seriously intensive PR training/coaching... and even then, how many Farmers and Truckers are known for their dynamic personalities?

I see both sides of this. I agree that the machines are often the draw, but to say that there are no dynamic personalities in pulling is a gross overstatement. Also, I find it very condescending of you to generalize farmers and truckers as not having dynamic personalities. Perhaps you should get to know these people better. While most farmers and/or truckers are businessmen, and are careful in how they interact with the general population, I can attest that there are a lot of personalities in the sport.

Quote
Jake Morgan
Quote
GirbachA
You wanna see pulling go to the masses or do you wanna see it stuck as a niche market?
The dream of taking pulling to the masses is about as realistic as the WNBA becoming the largest sport in the world. Pulling will NEVER gain ANY type of mass acceptance. It doesn't matter how it's promoted or how much money is dumped into the sport it will never grow in urban and suburban markets. It won't even be accepted in all rural markets. I know farmers that despise the sport for numerous reasons. The ceiling for this sport is not a whole lot higher than it currently is. Talk of some magical next level is unrealistic. The sport should be focusing on sustaining this level. Sorry to be a downer, but lets be realistic about how far this motorsport can grow.`

I disagree here. I believe that there is room for pulling to grow. I do believe that the marketing needs to change, along with other things. Pulling should be marketing all of it's assets, the machines, and the people.

Drag racing is currently doing well. What is the biggest selling point that major drag racing has? Especially in nitro, but in other areas, too, the outright insanity of the performance, in a measurable way. NHRA shortened the nitro track to 1000', and has made other rule changes in the interest of safety to control the speed. However, I believe top fuel is now faster at 1000' than they were at 1320' before the changes.

Pulling really should be advertising the outright outragousness of the machines. Modified tractors with 4 and 5 engines and combined horsepower easily over 10,000. Pro Stock turbos with 6" or larger inlets. There are others.

Another avenue for pulling, due to the fact that it operates on a basically closed course, and the sled keeps the speed and distance somewhat the same from class to class, would be to advertise the magnitude of the weight being pulled. Placing a strain gauge in the chain, and adding sign boards to the sled detailing the static weight, and the load between the pulling vehicle and the sled would go a long way with this. Even better, would have been if pulling had advertised these things starting years ago, so fans could see the progress that pulling vehicles have made, even if they "still only go 300'".

Also, personalities and rivalries are needed. Let the fans see that pullers are competitors. Even professional wrestling emphasizes rivalries, and I think most of us know just how much of a "competition" that sport really is.

Quote
Jake Morgan
Brand loyalty was one of this motorsports biggest assets and it tossed it in the trash in some classes. It's funny how the classes that don't allow cross dressing seem to be healthier than those that do... go figure.

While brand loyalty has its place, it is not anywhere close to being the biggest asset that pulling has. In my opinion, pullers are far too brand loyal to brands that have little or no loyalty to the pullers. As an example, yes, John Force discusses the "brand" of his race car, but that brand is supporting his racing. Tractor and auto manufactures get way to much emphasis, and free advertising from pulling (Case IH sponsorship of NTPA being the exception).

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 01:15AM
Quote
ABOBB


I'm purists but I enjoy seeing folks using different colors and different brands.
It's time to admit to yourself that you're not a purist. IT's OK... but be honest with yourself. If you saw someone say they weren't gay, but they do like watching dudes hook up... you'd laugh at that comment. That's exactly what your comment looks like to a brand loyal purist. You're not a purist... time to admit it.

That's a little out of line, Jake. While Andy may not technically be a purist, he is old-school. I tend to agree with him on this subject. While I love seeing variety, I also understand that, especially today, as much as I would hate to admit it, IH and JD engine platforms are not only more popular, but better suited to extreme horsepower use.

That being said, anyone who knows me, knows that I bleed orange. Should I suddenly experience the kind of financial windfall that would allow me to build my dream puller, it wouldn't be a surprise to learn that it would be and Allis Chalmers D-21 Pro-Stock. Also, because I'm old-school, like Andy, I would do everything in my power to make it competitive with either using either an Allis 426, or SISU engine platform. Granted, both of these options are more difficult and more expensive. Doing this would mean a lot to a couple of specific types of fans. First, the die-hard Allis fan would appreciate that I stayed brand loyal. Second, the gearhead fan would be interested based on the fact that it is not a "cookie-cutter" or the same as everyone else.



Where the sport has failed is emphasizing the sport's different personalities and marketing those personalities!
I couldn't disagree more. The tractors and trucks are the stars... NOT the drivers. Look at Monster trucks, my kids know the truck names and don't give a rip about who's driving them. They couldn't name a single driver in any monster truck series but they can name a ton of trucks. Puling is EXACTLY the same... the vehicles draw the fans, not the drivers. I've seen enough pulling driver interviews in my life to know that if pulling is going to try to make the drivers the stars they should shut the lights off and hang the closed sign in the window... either that or they better give EVERY driver some seriously intensive PR training/coaching... and even then, how many Farmers and Truckers are known for their dynamic personalities?

I see both sides of this. I agree that the machines are often the draw, but to say that there are no dynamic personalities in pulling is a gross overstatement. Also, I find it very condescending of you to generalize farmers and truckers as not having dynamic personalities. Perhaps you should get to know these people better. While most farmers and/or truckers are businessmen, and are careful in how they interact with the general population, I can attest that there are a lot of personalities in the sport.



You wanna see pulling go to the masses or do you wanna see it stuck as a niche market?
The dream of taking pulling to the masses is about as realistic as the WNBA becoming the largest sport in the world. Pulling will NEVER gain ANY type of mass acceptance. It doesn't matter how it's promoted or how much money is dumped into the sport it will never grow in urban and suburban markets. It won't even be accepted in all rural markets. I know farmers that despise the sport for numerous reasons. The ceiling for this sport is not a whole lot higher than it currently is. Talk of some magical next level is unrealistic. The sport should be focusing on sustaining this level. Sorry to be a downer, but lets be realistic about how far this motorsport can grow.`

I disagree here. I believe that there is room for pulling to grow. I do believe that the marketing needs to change, along with other things. Pulling should be marketing all of it's assets, the machines, and the people.

Drag racing is currently doing well. What is the biggest selling point that major drag racing has? Especially in nitro, but in other areas, too, the outright insanity of the performance, in a measurable way. NHRA shortened the nitro track to 1000', and has made other rule changes in the interest of safety to control the speed. However, I believe top fuel is now faster at 1000' than they were at 1320' before the changes.

Pulling really should be advertising the outright outragousness of the machines. Modified tractors with 4 and 5 engines and combined horsepower easily over 10,000. Pro Stock turbos with 6" or larger inlets. There are others.

Another avenue for pulling, due to the fact that it operates on a basically closed course, and the sled keeps the speed and distance somewhat the same from class to class, would be to advertise the magnitude of the weight being pulled. Placing a strain gauge in the chain, and adding sign boards to the sled detailing the static weight, and the load between the pulling vehicle and the sled would go a long way with this. Even better, would have been if pulling had advertised these things starting years ago, so fans could see the progress that pulling vehicles have made, even if they "still only go 300'".

Also, personalities and rivalries are needed. Let the fans see that pullers are competitors. Even professional wrestling emphasizes rivalries, and I think most of us know just how much of a "competition" that sport really is.


Brand loyalty was one of this motorsports biggest assets and it tossed it in the trash in some classes. It's funny how the classes that don't allow cross dressing seem to be healthier than those that do... go figure.

While brand loyalty has its place, it is not anywhere close to being the biggest asset that pulling has. In my opinion, pullers are far too brand loyal to brands that have little or no loyalty to the pullers. As an example, yes, John Force discusses the "brand" of his race car, but that brand is supporting his racing. Tractor and auto manufactures get way to much emphasis, and free advertising from pulling (Case IH sponsorship of NTPA being the exception).

NAILED IT!

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 05:30AM
I'm confused at what was out of line in my comments? You even admitted that "While Andy may not technically be a purist"... so we agree. There's nothing wrong with not being a purist or brand loyal. I've got zero gripe with anyone who isn't. My point is, don't say your one thing but support another. Just admit who you are. Discussions are better when people can be honest about what side they are really on.

Also, nowhere did I say there were no dynamic personalities in the sport. There are some... not a ton, but some. I stand by the rest of my statement. I'll even expand on it... Engineers aren't known for their dynamic personalities. Plumbers, electricians, tradespeople aren't known for their dynamic personalities. The vast majority of hard working Americans keep their heads down and nose to the grindstone. They aren't microphone savey and they don't want the spotlight. That's who makes up pulling. Awesome people, but not a marketing departments dream. If they want to make the drivers the stars then some serious money will be needed to "coach" them to be more media savvy. In my opinion the vehicles will always be the stars.

I also believe the is room to grow in the sport... Not alot, but still some room. My question for you is how much? Do you think the sport could double? Triple it's revenue? Bigger? How far could it reach? Me, I think it will always be a niche sport. We should make it the best niche sport it can be, but I think it unrealistic to think the masses will love it if they see it (especially in its current form).



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 06:51AM
So apparently you only want to see you side of the conversation as being right. Fine. You're just going to lose a lot of respect from a lot of people that are a lot smarter than you about pulling. And you can keep back pedaling with you're logic and responses.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 09:34AM
So you accuse me of bashing but you don't provide any specifics or details. Either I bashed or I didn't. You should easily provide proof if I did.

Now you accuse me of backpedaling even though I said I stand by my statement... and I even added to my statement for clarity. Nowhere did I backpedal. I'm not going to backpedal on this either. The vast majority of pullers are outshined by their tractors or trucks. Most pullers aren't dynamic on the mic. Just for reference... Neither am I. I'm not talking down to anyone... I suck at it too (That's why I have respect for Miles and Dan and the guys that are good on the mic).

Last but not least... this is actually the most important point... I allow ALL points of view on this page. However, I don't have to agree with them. If somebody presents a solid argument I'll happily listen to it. I'm personally very interested in hearing opinions how big this sport could get from guys like ABOBB and Andy. We may not agree but I am interested in what they think. (But it doesn't mean I'll automatically agree with them) I'm also interested to know why Andy Girbach thinks the sport could be accepted by the masses. I know part of his view is emphasizing drivers, but I believe Lucas Oil tried that... and it didn't work.

Do I only cheer for vehicles? No. I have guys I cheer for, but I'm an insider in this sport and I know lots of pullers on a personal level. Some fans may be able to do the same thing, but I don't know if that's realistic in this type of motorsport for the average fan. As any sport grows that also becomes less and less likely. Personally I think the sports closest cousin is monster trucks and some guys follow drivers, but most follow the trucks.

After I wrote my first response in this thread I asked my son to name a monster truck driver... He couldn't. I asked him to name a truck and he quickly rattled off a few in a second or two. He's also becoming aware of vehicle branding...

No backpedaling here. Trucks and tractors are the stars. Many/most fans are brand loyal. I still see fans wearing orange Case hats (insert any other brand)... cross dressing takes a major strength of the sport and tosses it out.

There are people who cheer for William (Lia) Thomas... there are others that think it makes a mockery of women's swimming and women's sports in general. Everyone is entitled to their opinion...

Either you're struggling to understand my opinion and you're reading into things I didn't say or you don't agree so you're making accusations instead of making counterpoints. I'm just telling you my opinion, I never said you or anyone else has to agree with it.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 02:21PM
Well Jake here's a history lesson for you! A very successful pulling promoter while at a pull he was putting on ( Hoosierdome I think) got a wild idea. He looked in his audience and a light bulb come on! He realized that the same folks at his pulls were the same folks that would attend a country music festival is a large dome stadium. Up till that point country music had never performed in such a large dome venue. He then proceeded to travel to Nashville and pitch the idea to Nashville executives and buy his talent lineup for the concert. The Nashville executives ( same mindset as you jake) said no way it would work and " country music don't belong in domes" and didn't give him the time of day after the brief meeting. Not taking no for a answer he still proceeded to book talent for the event. Before he left Nashville he met with the folks from NBC to pitch the idea. Folks at NBC flew into Pontiac Michigan and looked the dome over. After touring the dome they agreed that the idea would work and NBC bought the TV rights to air the concert. April 28th 1978 thee largest country music crowd in history ( at that point) showed up to the event. 58,761 ticket purchasing individuals showed up to a event that folks in the business said wouldn't work. The negative Nancy's ( like yourself Jake) were proven wrong and that same promoter took that show around the country selling out smaller stadiums. He even took the show to Germany and Japan. Later he went on to own 3 production companies ( which he sold off). Remember this whole idea wasn't supposed to work from " The people in the know"! He saw the potential by paying attention to the fans at tractor pulls and recognizing the potential. He had a idea and put the work in and it paid off all the while with a positive attitude! That same man also had thee largest crowds in the sport of pulling as well! Jake have you ever stood on the stadium floor at a pull where there is 50,000 people setting in the stands? I have and it's a feeling like no other!! Stands packed full of folks of all different colors, all different religions and all different occupations! I seen it in person with my own eyes more then once I'll add!! Unlike you jake I see what the sport of pulling has to offer and I believe there is folks now with great ideas for the future and the passion to lead it there! Unlike you jake I see the potential for this sport to obtain crowds like we had in the " good ol days"! I wanna see 1 1/2 traffic jams getting into events. I wanna see concession stands with 50 people deep standing in line waiting! I wanna see the local boy scouts going into panic mode because they can't keep enough popcorn and soda in stock! Some of you negative thinkers may think all this is unrealistic and a out of reach goal but it's not! Society ( in general) are finding their way back to motorsports for entertainment in record numbers! I can't speak for other motorsports but I pay real close attention to sprint cars and drag racing! Everyday my Facebook feed is full of announcements " record crowds". This Saturday will be another sellout of 50,000 people at a drag race and next week the knoxville nationals will be sold-out too! Having the luxury of attending big races I've noticed the connection between pulling, drag racing and sprint car racing. That connection is customer ( fan) based. All three of these motorsports share the exact same fan base. That fan base is horsepower junkies! Folks are out spending money on tickets for events and not batting a eye at the cost! For anybody that thinks I'm wrong, go to a big drag race or sprint car race and walk thru the crowd. You will see all kinds of folks wearing pulling shirts and fans you recognize by face. You will also be astonished how many pullers you'll run into at a race especially indy the us nationals! What the sport of pulling has to figure out is how to convert those fans over to pulling and make drag race fans pulling fans. The same folks that love fuel cars surely would love unlimited mod tractors, the same folks that love alcohol cars would love minis and twd trucks! How do we bring them folks over? I don't know but I believe we some folks today in pulling that has the Intelligence and ambition to try and make it happen! I believe we have folks on the management side of pulling with a positive can- do attitude but it up to us fans that really love this sport to help spread the gospel! It's going to take all of us for this sport to go to new heights and positive attitude people to do so! If you're not a positive can - do attitude person then this sport doesn't need you. Get off the F' ing train!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2023 02:28PM by GirbachA.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 11:54PM
I'll ask you the same questions as ABOBB... does pulling have a ceiling? Is the potential Unlimited? Could it be bigger than the NFL?

Also, I think we all want to see pulling in large stadiums.... now the difficult question.... why don't we anymore? Why did that era come and go? Your story about country music in stadiums was great but it doesn't exactly parallel the story of pulling in stadiums does it? Why? Either pulling did something seriously wrong or pulling doesn't have broad appeal to fill a stadium. So which is it, or is it both?



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 04:35PM
Quote
Jake Morgan

Personally I think the sports closest cousin is monster trucks and some guys follow drivers, but most follow the trucks.

I totally disagree here. Especially with modern sleds, pulling has more in common with drag racing.

Andy gave you one history lessen, I'll give another. Monster trucks at one time were a "sideshow" or "add on" at truck and tractor pulls. One promoter wanted a gauranteed and consistent group of competitors at every event. They offered both the pullers and the monster truck guys a different concept. They would pay a certain amount of show up money, and very little, if any prize money. The monster truck guys agreed, but the pullers preferred to continue competing, rather than just be a "paid show". This promotion eventually moved more in the direction of monster trucks, and the "Monster Truck SHOW" was born.

Pulling remains a competition, with no "orders" concerning who is to win on any given night. Drag racing follows the same concept.

Also, as far as engines are concerned, pulling and drag racing share huge amounts of crossover. The blowers, and fuel systems used by mods, TWD trucks, and mini-rods are direct crossovers, as are some of the mountain motors such as used in MFWD/PMFWD trucks. Sonny Leonard and now Dave Visner supply engines to many competitors in both arenas. In the past, you could also see names like Janke, or Gaerte on the sides of both pullers and racers. Even beyond that, Harts have become a well known turbo supplier to drag racing.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 03:11PM
Quote
Jake Morgan
I'm confused at what was out of line in my comments? You even admitted that "While Andy may not technically be a purist"... so we agree. There's nothing wrong with not being a purist or brand loyal. I've got zero gripe with anyone who isn't. My point is, don't say your one thing but support another. Just admit who you are. Discussions are better when people can be honest about what side they are really on.

Yes, I did agree that Andy is not technically a purist. However, your statement, especially the comparison to a sexual orientation, played very much as an attack on Andy for using the wrong term to describe himself (likely doing so accidentally).

Quote
Jake Morgan
Also, nowhere did I say there were no dynamic personalities in the sport. There are some... not a ton, but some. I stand by the rest of my statement. I'll even expand on it... Engineers aren't known for their dynamic personalities. Plumbers, electricians, tradespeople aren't known for their dynamic personalities. The vast majority of hard working Americans keep their heads down and nose to the grindstone. They aren't microphone savey and they don't want the spotlight. That's who makes up pulling. Awesome people, but not a marketing departments dream. If they want to make the drivers the stars then some serious money will be needed to "coach" them to be more media savvy. In my opinion the vehicles will always be the stars.

Ok, so you didn't blatantly say that there are no dynamic personalities in the sport. What you did say is that the vehicles are the stars, not the people. You also said "how many Farmers and Truckers are known for their dynamic personalities?" bringing in the personalities of farmers and truckers in general. I'll say it again, get to know these people, on more than a surface level. You'll find that while not always flamboyant, or effusive, there are a lot of dynamic personalities. Also, while the vehicles may get more attention, let's not forget, that those vehicles are an expression of the driver/owner/builder's personality. If the vehicles are dynamic enough to garner attention, maybe we need to dig deeper into the people to learn what it is about them they are expressing through their vehicle.

Secondly, pulling in this era does not do a good job of marketing the personalities it has that are naturally more flamboyant. Jeff Hirt, for example. Jeff is passionate about pulling. He is exciting to watch, no matter what the pulling vehicle is. But, how well does pulling market that excitement, outside of an announcers comments? If you are relying on the announcer, it's too late... those people already bought the ticket, they were at the event anyway.

Also, the ultra flamboyent personalities are not the best fit for every situation. There are some segments of the potential audience (technical gearheads for example) who would be more interested in the inner workings of the machine. This segment of the audience would be more attracted by the builder/designer/engineer than they would the flamboyent entertainer.

The sport needs all types, and needs to market them to the appropriate audiences simultaneously.

Quote
Jake Morgan
I also believe the is room to grow in the sport... Not alot, but still some room. My question for you is how much? Do you think the sport could double? Triple it's revenue? Bigger? How far could it reach? Me, I think it will always be a niche sport. We should make it the best niche sport it can be, but I think it unrealistic to think the masses will love it if they see it (especially in its current form).

I personally believe that there really isn't a ceiling to how high the sport can grow. However, I don't think it will be easy. I think there needs to be a lot of changes, if the sport is to flourish again. Better marketing, of both people and vehicles, as well as the outrageousness of the feats that those people and vehicles accomplish. A major revamp of the classes, from the very top to the very bottom. A major revamp of how pulling organizations are structured. I have ideas, but doubt most of them would be well received.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 04:28PM
I wasn't saying anything about Andy's orientation... I was very careful with my words to not imply anything. But as I said in another post, if you say one thing and promote the opposite there's a disconnect there. Sometimes it takes a bold example for people to see the disconnect. To me his comments showed a disconnect saying he's a purist but still approves of crossdressing. Both things can't be true.

Quote
ABOBB
Ok, so you didn't blatantly say that there are no dynamic personalities in the sport. What you did say is that the vehicles are the stars, not the people.

Here's how I know the tractors are generally the stars... I've seen plenty of threads started by users/members on this page about favorite truck or tractor or favorite brand. Seldom do I see thread about favorite driver. Even when there are discussion of Hall of Fame worthy people... many on the list that get brought up are builders or innovators. Drivers get much less attention. The attention is generally on the tractor even from the hardcore fans on this page. That's just the reality of our sport. There are driver I love, but I'm close to the sport... most fans aren't as close.

Quote
ABOBB
You also said "how many Farmers and Truckers are known for their dynamic personalities?" bringing in the personalities of farmers and truckers in general. I'll say it again, get to know these people, on more than a surface level. You'll find that while not always flamboyant, or effusive, there are a lot of dynamic personalities. Also, while the vehicles may get more attention, let's not forget, that those vehicles are an expression of the driver/owner/builder's personality. If the vehicles are dynamic enough to garner attention, maybe we need to dig deeper into the people to learn what it is about them they are expressing through their vehicle.

Are we talking about personal relationships or marketing of the sport? I'm talking about marketing the sport. I'm talking about interviews, microphone time, media appearance. I'm not talking about how they are in their shops or one-on-one or as friends. Most are great in those settings. I'm talking about what a marketing expert can sell to audiences to grow the sport. Marketing personalities has been tried... it was less than successful.

Also, I can't think of many farmers or truckers that are household names (Lucas being the exception but for the oil). There's a reason there aren't many reality shows on farmers or truckers (and usually when they do they mock them). As I said in my other post... hard working American's like: farmers, truckers, engineers, tradespeople, etc... are accustomed to keeping our heads down and working hard. Sure there are some that are more media savvy... those few have Youtube channels and do OK but they won't ever beat Dude Perfect with farming content.

Quote
ABOBB
The sport needs all types, and needs to market them to the appropriate audiences simultaneously.

Totally agree, but it needs a certain percentage of dynamic personalities if that's how you plan to grow the sport or take it to the next level, etc... by focusing on personalities It's heavy on the engineering types and the introverted (I'm an introvert so I can relate) and that's not a good recipe if your goal is to focus on the people.

Quote
ABOBB
I personally believe that there really isn't a ceiling to how high the sport can grow.

This is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think under any realistic circumstance that pulling could be bigger than the NFL... or any major league sport. I don't think pulling could even ever be the biggest motorsport in the US. I don't think pulling will ever catch back up to Monster trucks in popularity. I don't think pulling will ever be a big as the WNBA. It doesn't mean I don't love the sport and it doesn't mean I don't want it to grow. I just think it has a ceiling.

Quote
ABOBB
However, I don't think it will be easy. I think there needs to be a lot of changes, if the sport is to flourish again. Better marketing, of both people and vehicles, as well as the outrageousness of the feats that those people and vehicles accomplish. A major revamp of the classes, from the very top to the very bottom. A major revamp of how pulling organizations are structured. I have ideas, but doubt most of them would be well received.

We might not agree on all your ideas but I agree that change needs to happen. I also think it's important to analyze changes that have already happened and assess if they bear fruit. Also, just because an opinion isn't well received doesn't mean you shouldn't share it. I knew my statement about Farmers and Truckers wouldn't be well received on this page but I believe it to be true and general evidence in society back me up on my view. Most of my friends and my church family are engineers... I know for a fact I could make the same comments to them about engineers and the overwhelming majority would laugh and agree. They can admit who they are. I have a few friends that we regularly joke that a dynamic, extroverted, comfortable public speaking engineer is called a division manager or vice president... they aren't nearly as common as the other engineers.

I'm not dynamic. I can admit it.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 05:11PM
Quote
Jake Morgan

Are we talking about personal relationships or marketing of the sport? I'm talking about marketing the sport. I'm talking about interviews, microphone time, media appearance. I'm not talking about how they are in their shops or one-on-one or as friends. Most are great in those settings. I'm talking about what a marketing expert can sell to audiences to grow the sport. Marketing personalities has been tried... it was less than successful.

I am talking about both.

First, let's be specific. There is a difference between having a dynamic personality, even one that is calm and reserved, and having a flamboyant personality. I believe you are talking about the more flamboyant personalities, while using the word dynamic.

Second, knowing that pulling competitors are more than likely to be of the calm and reserved type, it falls on promoters, announcers, and the marketing people within the sport to get to know these people on a deeper level. Doing so will make it possible to bring out their dynamic personality. I'll give a bit of an example from another sport. I had a co-worker several years younger than me, who once felt that Bobby Knight would not make a good TV personality, or basketball analyst. His reasoning was based on an interview he had seen, where the interviewer asked Knight questions that could easily be answered with as "yes" or "no", and that's exactly the type of answers Knight gave, without expounding on the subject any further. (Sounds like a lot of pulling interviews I've seen and heard.) Later, my co-worker was watching a ESPN broadcast of a Kentucky game, with Knight as the studio analyst. This time, the in-studio host asked questions that required deeper, more involved answers. My friend called me... "Are you watching this game?" "Your guy Knight is part of the announcing team, and he's GOOOD!!!"

Trying to change a pullers personality would be very costly, and only mildly successful, as well as the lazy way to promote and market the sport. However, more success will be found by the more extroverted members of the situation learning the personalities of the others, and learning how to draw those out with more carefully crafted questions. There are dynamic and interesting personalities already within the sport, they are just more calm and reserved.

Quote
Jake Morgan
Totally agree, but it needs a certain percentage of dynamic personalities if that's how you plan to grow the sport or take it to the next level, etc... by focusing on personalities It's heavy on the engineering types and the introverted (I'm an introvert so I can relate) and that's not a good recipe if your goal is to focus on the people.

Again, you use the word "dynamic" when I believe you actually mean extroverted, or flamboyant.

Quote
Jake Morgan
This is where we fundamentally disagree. I don't think under any realistic circumstance that pulling could be bigger than the NFL... or any major league sport. I don't think pulling could even ever be the biggest motorsport in the US. I don't think pulling will ever catch back up to Monster trucks in popularity. I don't think pulling will ever be a big as the WNBA. It doesn't mean I don't love the sport and it doesn't mean I don't want it to grow. I just think it has a ceiling.

My biggest concern with this statement is this: If you believe there is a ceiling, and you market only to reach that ceiling, the best you are likely to do, is reach that ceiling. More to the point, pulling, if marketed by you, Jake, definitely has no chance of being bigger than the WNBA, monster trucks, the NFL, etc, because you don't believe it can be, and will not work to grow it to that level.

Quote
Jake Morgan
I'm not dynamic. I can admit it.

Again, you use "dynamic" when (I believe) you mean, extroverted, or flamboyant. I personally would wager that you do have a dynamic personality. I do also understand your thought process. Thanks to Charles Poosch, I consider myself an extroverted introvert. I am usually more calm, and reserved, and not flamboyant. However, my personality is not a monolith. I have multiple, varied interests.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 11:42PM
I'm not talking about anyone's "personal"/private personality (that's part of the disconnect between us). I'm only talking about their public side. That's the side the average fan will see if you were to focus on personalities. The private life makes for a nice feel good story on Olympic broadcasts but doesn't grow the sport.

Also, I don't mean flamboyant. I simply mean interesting or engaging while in the public spotlight. I view someone dynamic as someone who grabs attention and makes you want to listen to them. They don't have to be loud or outrageous to be dynamic. Someone like psycologist Jordan Peterson comes to mind... almost always reserved and measured in his speech but people listen. He's not loud, not flamboyant, but very dynamic. When he talks people listen. It's not a very common trait to speak publicly with confidence and authority while on a microphone. Plenty can do it in private, but doing it publicly is a whole different skill. It is a skill that can be taught and attained by some/many, but for the average person it usually takes a lot of coaching. (Coaching that Bobby Knight probably got at some point).

That's what I mean by dynamic... I don't mean flamboyant/loud/center of attention/showy/etc....

I also think that knowing there's a ceiling also helps you spend your marketing dollars wisely. If you act like the sport has unlimited broad appeal then you'll waste a ton of money to reach an audience that will never show up to a pull. You can go to a very liberal large city and spend all the money you want to promote the sport in nightclubs and I think you'll find the return on your investment to be minimal. Know your core audience and market to them first and when you've completely grown that market you can think about other demographics. Pulling has lost fans in it's core demographic (rural). That tells me there's a ceiling even among it's core demographic. Thoughts of expanding beyond the core demographic before we figure out why fans have lost interest seem... like a waste of resources.

Do you think curling (throwing stones on ice) has an unlimited ceiling?



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 04, 2023 01:51AM
Quote
Jake Morgan
I'm not talking about anyone's "personal"/private personality (that's part of the disconnect between us). I'm only talking about their public side. That's the side the average fan will see if you were to focus on personalities. The private life makes for a nice feel good story on Olympic broadcasts but doesn't grow the sport.

I agree, the private, in depth type of story makes for a good feel good, but that isn't what I'm talking about.

Quote
Jake Morgan
Also, I don't mean flamboyant. I simply mean interesting or engaging while in the public spotlight. I view someone dynamic as someone who grabs attention and makes you want to listen to them. They don't have to be loud or outrageous to be dynamic. Someone like psycologist Jordan Peterson comes to mind... almost always reserved and measured in his speech but people listen. He's not loud, not flamboyant, but very dynamic. When he talks people listen. It's not a very common trait to speak publicly with confidence and authority while on a microphone. Plenty can do it in private, but doing it publicly is a whole different skill. It is a skill that can be taught and attained by some/many, but for the average person it usually takes a lot of coaching. (Coaching that Bobby Knight probably got at some point).

That's what I mean by dynamic... I don't mean flamboyant/loud/center of attention/showy/etc....

I admit, flamboyant probably isn't the correct word for what I'm thinking. But, not using the "correct" word is part of what got us into this discussion, isn't it. Andy called himself a purist, when "old school" would have been more appropriate, you continue to use dynamic in a way that I don't think fits, and I have used flamboyant, when I should more properly say effusive, or emotive.

Concerning Bobby Knight, I can't speak to what kind of "coaching" he ever received concerning public speaking, but my opinion based on his public personality is that if there was any of that kind of coaching, it wasn't well received. The point was, the questions asked can make all the difference in the world. Knight, when asked a question that could be answered yes/no, answered with either yes, or no, as in his mind, there was no more explanation needed. When asked questions that elicited longer, more detailed answers, he provided them, and did it very well. Pulling announcers/interviewers should have this in mind. As we have agreed, a majority of pullers are more reserved. If a yes/no answer will suffice, they will answer either yes, or no, and not voluntarily expand on the subject. However, if asked questions that elicit longer, more detailed answers, will deliver those answers.

Quote
Jake Morgan
I also think that knowing there's a ceiling also helps you spend your marketing dollars wisely. If you act like the sport has unlimited broad appeal then you'll waste a ton of money to reach an audience that will never show up to a pull. You can go to a very liberal large city and spend all the money you want to promote the sport in nightclubs and I think you'll find the return on your investment to be minimal. Know your core audience and market to them first and when you've completely grown that market you can think about other demographics. Pulling has lost fans in it's core demographic (rural). That tells me there's a ceiling even among it's core demographic. Thoughts of expanding beyond the core demographic before we figure out why fans have lost interest seem... like a waste of resources.

Admittedly, nothing is ever going to be universally popular. So, yes, there is a ceiling, however, there is a great risk of setting your ceiling too low, and "leaving money on the table" so to speak. I would never advocate advertising a pulling event in a nightclub, that would not be a wise use of marketing funds. However, there may be a marketing angle, that could target that same demographic in a different way.

Also, dedicating the bulk of your marketing and advertising funds to your core audience is not wise. Your core audience is already aware of who, and what you are. While you should never take them for granted, to some degree, your marketing to them should consist of little more than making sure they know when, and where. After that, your product (the event) will do the rest. There is a saying in the fire service: Risk a lot for a great reward, risk little for a small reward. Advertising beyond informing your established fans about dates, times and locations should be dedicated to attracting potential future fans. This should be done in a wise manner, however.

Quote
Jake Morgan
Do you think curling (throwing stones on ice) has an unlimited ceiling?

No, I don't. Although I am aware of the sport, I am not an enthusiast of that sport. I would expect a curling enthusiast to think about curling the way I think about pulling. I would expect them to want to expose as many people as possible to their sport, in the best way possible to potentially enlist those people as future fans. That, is what I think pulling, on all levels should be doing.

Where pulling fails to promote August 04, 2023 03:29AM
The problem is the business model being used is antiquated. All the sanctioning bodies rely on promoters and make some of their money off sanctioning fees. As sanctioning bodies more discretion needs to be used in who gets to have a pull. I whole heartedly believe less is more. Not every county fair that wants a pull should get to have one. The standards need to be raised as to where sanctioning bodies allow their events to take place.

Since the sanctioning bodies rely on a sanctioning fee/promoter relationship the promoting of the sport falls on the promoter. Most are doing good to get Billy Ray Jim Bob out of his truck bed for the night and onto a roller let alone promote.

BMPT/ Let’s Grow Pulling has recognized this void and offered services and do a fantastic job. County fairs by and large are struggling to survive and many just don’t have it in the budget to promote/advertise to todays world.

There is an over saturation of pulling in the market place. Just here in Ohio, I won’t even touch R2 you have
NTPA
PPL
OSTPA
OHIO MOD
CENTRAL OHIO TRUCK PULLERS
CENTRAL OHIO ANTIQUE TRACTOR PULLERS
MICHINDOH
GLENFORD PULLERS
SOATPA (Southern Ohio)
SEOPS (South Eastern Ohio Pulling Series)
MAUMEE VALLEY PULLERS
DARKE COUNTY TRACTOR PULLERS

This is still not a comprehensive list of all the clubs/sanctioning bodies in Ohio. There is an over saturation of the market and there isn’t much difference visually in classes.

So how do we change that? There is one event! One event that a sanctioning body runs, promotes and it is one of the best run shows in the country. The Enderle Pull Off. That event has radio spots, flyers in gas stations, local media coverage, social media coverage etc. it is very well run and very well promoted. I think the future of the sport is more sanctioning body owned/promoted events.

As long as pullers and sanctioning bodies continue to pull at every podunk junction that has/wants an event then we are our own worst enemies. I fully believe if you don’t shoot for the stars you’ll never reach the moon. It’s going to take a change in leadership, a change in vision and a change in direction. I’m still holding out for that day.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 04, 2023 01:13AM
We were at the Armada, Michigan pull a few yrs ago and Charles and his sidekick Andrew ( God rest his soul ) were there and announced the LLSS class, as soon as they took the microphone it was instantly better, their personality and communication with each other and the pullers was brilliant, Andrew was on the track and Charles in the booth, the crowd totally changes and it was a complete 180, so personalities definitely play a part in growing the sport -- "those two were absolutely the best together " !!!!

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 04, 2023 02:07AM
Ouch. Burned. We had been doing our hometown Fair the whole time. I've been blessed to be there since I think '08.

I miss him terribly. We fight the good fight.

I'm with Andy and Aaron on this subject which has clearly grown far beyond what engine is under the hood. Sure, there's a ceiling to it, but so what? Not trying to be the NFL. Am trying to be a place where a guy could win 20k on a weekend. Is it possible? You bet it is. It'll take effort and partners. In a few minutes, I'll be leaving for a space that within 8 or so acres will be nearly 200 million dollars worth of performance parts, toterhomes, trailers, side by sides, tools, you name it. There's value there and I don't mean what it all could sell for. The value is the lives and livelihoods touched by all that gets distilled there. We can't reach the soccer mom? Only because we haven't tapped into the path. Her husband works in the plant that injection-molds the leaf blower cooling off that Pro Stock. She is the bookkeeper for the tubing supplier for that rollcage. It's all about speaking the proper language to everyone. We do a good job of promoting the machines and I am really guilty of this. Guilty why? I don't promote the people. And I need to do better there. There are personalities in the pit area, but it doesn't even need to be that complicated. Maybe soccer mom thinks driver X is hot. She'll watch on that basis alone. Get the cameras out in the pit area so she can see him.

I lack the time right now to explore it further, but we can make this deal bigger if we dispense with our preconceived notions about it. More blue sky thinking, less talk of cloudy ceilings.

My spur-of-the-moment $0.02 TED talk.

CP

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 02, 2023 11:25PM
Jake, you just proved you bash as much as anybody else if they don't think like you do.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 05:01AM
What bashing did I do?

And please provide specifics because I just re-read my post (maybe you should too) and I don't see where I'm bashing anyone.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/03/2023 05:06AM by Jake Morgan.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 01, 2023 01:29PM
Just wondering in a component chassis what makes it a Red or green tractor. Other than the paint. Most have custom hoods profab Transmission recast block and head. Billet internals. So why does it matter what block is inside. Can anyone tell me what is actual tractor in a component puller.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 01, 2023 01:46PM
Quote
Jake Koch
Just wondering in a component chassis what makes it a Red or green tractor. Other than the paint. Most have custom hoods profab Transmission recast block and head. Billet internals. So why does it matter what block is inside. Can anyone tell me what is actual tractor in a component puller.

The sheet metal and color, in my opinion.....lol

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 02, 2023 12:17AM
Not to jump in the crowd and beat this horse to death.... but 90% of the pulls in this great nation are small county fairs with nothing more for the crowd to watch than a farm stock class. I do agree those classes need to have brand specific rules.... but once in a great while there is a group that pulls in and has bigger classes that most kids will only see once a year at their county fairs. That little fan has no clue what is under the hood or bolted to the frame rails, all they see sitting next to dad and grandpa is their brand of tractor. If it takes running a red block in an orange hood or any other variation to be competitive and maybe that tractor runs out there and puts four feet on the class that little one will be the happiest fan and go home with dad and grandpa with their chest out and head high. Just maybe lighting a spark in that little one to one day be the next five time grand champion and or start a pulling group that will overshadow the big three now. So if we today do not want to grow the sport then we should pack all this $#!+ up and go to the house. Myself I cut my teeth on tractor pulling Thanks to my father and am old enough to have seen classes with all colors, and I feel it made for way better pulling. Thank you Morgan's for the space. God bless this great nation and God bless tractor pulling!

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 02, 2023 12:58AM
Quote
avercusauto
It was brought up in a recent post talking about Lt Pros going component that they shouldn't be able to run different sheet metal than the block. So let's really think about this. How good or bad is it. Let's start with the cons.

Cons:
-It's wierd. You want to paint your John Deere big block blue so the tractor looks like a New Holland. Why? Just build a Deere.
-And when they announce that the tractor has a different block at an event, what does the crowd really think. Are the purests dissapointed to the point it takes some of the enjoyment out of going.
-It's also the easy way. Why spend the time to make an different brand to work, when so many guys have got the IH and Deere engines figured out.

Pros:
-It is easier and cheaper. If your spending all the time and money to build a tractor, why not go with something that is tried and true, espically if it cost less.
-It adds color to the class. You get to see all different brands and sheet metal. Does everyone really want to see a red/green show?
-If the tractor is a componenet chassis, how much of the tracgtor is actually a tractor. At that point, there really isn't too many OEM parts on it. Does it really matter?

I have always been torn on this topic. I truley want to see the block match the sheet metal, but I also don't want to see a class of 20 Pros and 17 of them be green. I grew up on Deere's and I still want to see all brands pull. And to be perfectly honest, some of the most beautiful tractors out there, aren't the red a green ones(my opinion). When Hart's built there charcoal Massey Pro, I thought it was one of the nicest looking tractors out there. I was at an event where he won with that tractor and the guy beside me was bummed that a Deere didn't get it. He had no idea what motor was in it. I knew, but the average fan had no idea. At the end of the day, on a component tractor, does it really matter? I LOVE the guys like Carlton Cope who dare to be different and build some bad ass machines. But I also really like guys coming out with all these different looking tractors. Come on, Lanc Micek's High Hopes tractor, the Lemke's Staight Outta Line, Craig Ladwig's Fendt, etc. These tractors are beautiful and draw people to them, including me. And look at the 2wd class. 95% are Hemis and all different bodies on them. Super Stock Diesel trucks, same thing. Mostly Cummins powered. I do feel that allowing crossdressing has hurt some technological developments. Look back in the day when guys did run all different brands. Guys worked with the brand they wanted. Then when the green and red guys got it figured out, people started switching. I get it, everyone wants to win. Look at when the super stock guys went to alcohol, it wasn't a big deal until they got it figured out. Look at the big cummins v-8s(there could be a whole other argument on these). They were not perfect, but they got them figured out. Would things be different if someone figured out a Allis block and dominated with it? Who knows? I attend 30 pulls a year, at the end of the day, I like the color and different tractors. I can handle it,but it bettere be a component chassis. Just my 2 cents.

Totally agree with you. Keep in mind though you referenced Lemke's Strait Outta Line and Ladwigs Never Giving Up both the Fendt and Class came stock with Deere motors in them. My opinion when someone works hard to build a new tractor that stands out or that looks different from the standard red or green the bashing they get on here is uncalled for. If you disagree that's fine were all entitled to an opinion, say you disagree and quit the bashing.

My curiosity is why this conversation is always about the Pro Stock class? Most of the other classes lean towards the IH. Especially the Supers

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 02, 2023 01:10AM
Quote
Badgerfan

It was brought up in a recent post talking about Lt Pros going component that they shouldn't be able to run different sheet metal than the block. So let's really think about this. How good or bad is it. Let's start with the cons.

Cons:
-It's wierd. You want to paint your John Deere big block blue so the tractor looks like a New Holland. Why? Just build a Deere.
-And when they announce that the tractor has a different block at an event, what does the crowd really think. Are the purests dissapointed to the point it takes some of the enjoyment out of going.
-It's also the easy way. Why spend the time to make an different brand to work, when so many guys have got the IH and Deere engines figured out.

Pros:
-It is easier and cheaper. If your spending all the time and money to build a tractor, why not go with something that is tried and true, espically if it cost less.
-It adds color to the class. You get to see all different brands and sheet metal. Does everyone really want to see a red/green show?
-If the tractor is a componenet chassis, how much of the tracgtor is actually a tractor. At that point, there really isn't too many OEM parts on it. Does it really matter?

I have always been torn on this topic. I truley want to see the block match the sheet metal, but I also don't want to see a class of 20 Pros and 17 of them be green. I grew up on Deere's and I still want to see all brands pull. And to be perfectly honest, some of the most beautiful tractors out there, aren't the red a green ones(my opinion). When Hart's built there charcoal Massey Pro, I thought it was one of the nicest looking tractors out there. I was at an event where he won with that tractor and the guy beside me was bummed that a Deere didn't get it. He had no idea what motor was in it. I knew, but the average fan had no idea. At the end of the day, on a component tractor, does it really matter? I LOVE the guys like Carlton Cope who dare to be different and build some bad ass machines. But I also really like guys coming out with all these different looking tractors. Come on, Lanc Micek's High Hopes tractor, the Lemke's Staight Outta Line, Craig Ladwig's Fendt, etc. These tractors are beautiful and draw people to them, including me. And look at the 2wd class. 95% are Hemis and all different bodies on them. Super Stock Diesel trucks, same thing. Mostly Cummins powered. I do feel that allowing crossdressing has hurt some technological developments. Look back in the day when guys did run all different brands. Guys worked with the brand they wanted. Then when the green and red guys got it figured out, people started switching. I get it, everyone wants to win. Look at when the super stock guys went to alcohol, it wasn't a big deal until they got it figured out. Look at the big cummins v-8s(there could be a whole other argument on these). They were not perfect, but they got them figured out. Would things be different if someone figured out a Allis block and dominated with it? Who knows? I attend 30 pulls a year, at the end of the day, I like the color and different tractors. I can handle it,but it bettere be a component chassis. Just my 2 cents.

Totally agree with you. Keep in mind though you referenced Lemke's Strait Outta Line and Ladwigs Never Giving Up both the Fendt and Class came stock with Deere motors in them. My opinion when someone works hard to build a new tractor that stands out or that looks different from the standard red or green the bashing they get on here is uncalled for. If you disagree that's fine were all entitled to an opinion, say you disagree and quit the bashing.

My curiosity is why this conversation is always about the Pro Stock class? Most of the other classes lean towards the IH. Especially the Supers
I’ve often wondered this too! No one said much when the AC’s started putting DT’s in them or all of those super stocks started running them but as soon as Rob Russel put that big block in everyone started crowing about how everyone is running John Deere engines. Well in that one class it is predominantly Deere but that’s it. Couch was probably the first to cross dress a pro and he did it with a D&R IH engine, wasn’t hardly anything said of it.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 02, 2023 03:40AM
At the end of the day you are either a cross dresser or you're not, you made the choice, live with it. The only gripe I have about the cross dressing rule is that the overwhelming majority of the announcers never tell the spectators that the carpet doesn't match the drapes.Eye Rolling

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 02, 2023 04:22AM
Quote
Badgerfan
My opinion when someone works hard to build a new tractor that stands out or that looks different from the standard red or green the bashing they get on here is uncalled for. If you disagree that's fine were all entitled to an opinion, say you disagree and quit the bashing.

Could you please post a link to any of the bashing?



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 01:20AM
Jake search crossdressing for a quick example.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 10:16AM
when they ran IH weightsDrinking

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 01:36PM
Quote
Badgerfan
Jake search crossdressing for a quick example.

I'll do some of the work for you. Here's my search with ALL my posts mentioning "crossdressing"

[www.pulloff.com]

Which one had the bashing? Be specific. If you're going to accuse me of something be specific. Copy and paste my sentence where I bashed someone. Please. It's super easy to copy and paste a sentence. The world is full of accusations... back it up and prove it.

I didn't bash Andy anywhere in my post. I disagreed with him but I never bashed him. I didn't even bash the WNBA in my post and I really love mocking that league. I didn't bash any pullers who have crossdressing tractors. I've got nothing against them. I have friends that have crossdressing tractors and I have friends that have considered crossdressing their tractors. That's their choice. Here's a shocker... I have friends that don't like pulling... I do. I have friends that are democrats... I'm not. I have friends that like rap... I really dislike it. I have friends that aren't Christian... it's the most important thing in my life. We don't all have to agree on everything. I have my opinion against crossdressing. I simply disagree with the rules that allow it. I think it makes tractors MORE cookie cutter but with a false façade of variety.

I think any class that goes component in the future would be better off if they didn't allow crossdressing. Honestly I don't even understand why we don't just have a spec block if we're going to allow crossdressing. Why bother with ANY factory specs for the engine. Just make them 100% mods with hoods and drop the "stock" out of the name... Heck, why even have a hood if they don't really relate to anything. I've said this numerous times in the past but I think the TWD class would be awesome if they ran factory blocks that had to match manufacturer. Put a 360ish limit on them and make it a true manufactures class. Crossdressing has yet to make ANY class better.

Side Note: I did call Mike Wilhite's tractor purple a while ago as a joke just to bust his chops. I've had the same opinion on crossdressing tractors for a while, here's a post from 2010 [www.pulloff.com] it still seems pretty applicable today. I guess allowing the mixing and matching of sheetmetal has really grown the Pro Stock class since then.



Jake Morgan
Owner, PULLOFF.COM
Independent Pulling News



This page is a free service. The cost is covered out of my pocket. It takes a great deal of time and a fair amount of money to keep this website going. Donations for: photos, classified ads, forum discussion, etc... are appreciated.

Side Note: We are no longer accepting PayPal donations. They have changed their terms of service and stated they would fine PayPal users for spreading "misinformation" and "hate, violence, racial or other forms of intolerance that is discriminatory". PayPal did not provide definitions for some of these vague terms. Woke corporate policies regarding "misinformation" could result in an automatic fine of $2,500 which would have been removed directly from the customer’s PayPal account. PayPal did backdown from some of their policies but quietly implemented portions of them in later terms of service. A financial institute has no right to monitor social media accounts or speech. This is unacceptable and I'll no longer do business with PayPal.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 03:03PM
Fact: once you build a component chassis it is no longer a (tractor). It is now a purpose built machine designed to pull a sled. Just as in a nascar, drag car, or monster (truck)
. What automotive company makes a shark or a dog? (Monster jam reference).
You grew up farming with IH and you want to be competitive In Pro stock you need a Deere motor but you are dead set on not driving anything but red. Put IH sheet metal on it and poof the IH fans cheer and roar for you to beat all the Deere tractors even though you have the same race tractor as the rest of the class. You have a couple guys max in the stands max because that’s not an IH motor… it’s not an IH tractor either. The only thing tractor is the few body parts that get put on.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 10:28PM
Kind of walked all over my statement there...... LOL..... just kidding......My thoughts exactly. only a handful of fans know what is under the hood, they are just proud their brand is represented in the class. I will venture to say that 90% of well seasoned fans and pullers would not be able to tell the difference between a light pro (AG Chassie), 4.1, super farm, Llp, if side by side in the pits not running... (all new builds,,, unknown tractors). Again,Thanks Jake for the space.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 03, 2023 11:08PM
I am amazed to listen to the people that claim that the sport has not become a major motorsports league because it hasn't been marketed right. They just say if the sport was promoted better there would be growth. They make it sound like the NTPA, PPL and the Outlaws just haven't tried hard enough to promote the sport. Or have done it the wrong way. If they were in charge it would raise to the next level. They go to the Piggly Wiggly and see some guy wearing a pulling shirt and they think all of America is wearing pulling shirts, no its not. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The NTPA tried several different ways over the years to " grow" the sport, they make it sound like they have it all figured out and the NTPA just can't get it right. Well the hard cold facts are the sport is a mid America sport. Its appeal is to rural America. Granted an Unlimited Mod is visually a very impressive vehicle, however 10,000 HP going down the track at 35+ MPH for a distance of less than 350 feet does not look impressive on TV. If a sport doesn't look good on TV it's not going to sell on main street America. The truth is county fairs ( the backbone of the sport) are shrinking not growing. Granted there many great stand alone events that are doing well however they are promoted by people that love the sport, but when you talk to them most will tell you that they don't see who will step in to carry on when they retire. The problem is that some people believe that if someone would just attend one pull they would become a fan for life. They view the sport thru their lens, their rose colored glasses. Rual America is shrinking, not growing, rual America is the fan base of the sport. Soccer mom is not going to relate to the sport. Maybe you wife, mom or sister does, soccer mom does not. The sport has lost vehicles, venues and sponsors over the years through no ones fault. It just the ever-changing appetite of the public.



Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 04, 2023 12:27AM
Quote
Dick Morgan
The sport has lost vehicles, venues and sponsors over the years through no ones fault. It just the ever-changing appetite of the public.

The Wal-Marts...,Walgreens...Menards,...Amazon,...and ect...ect... have killed the small towns. On top of the factories being shipped to china and others.....there's no coming back from this. It's only going to get worse for rural America,...and rural America is tractor pulling...

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 04, 2023 12:39AM
Quote
Dick Morgan
I am amazed to listen to the people that claim that the sport has not become a major motorsports league because it hasn't been marketed right. They just say if the sport was promoted better there would be growth. They make it sound like the NTPA, PPL and the Outlaws just haven't tried hard enough to promote the sport. Or have done it the wrong way.

I am not being negative in any way about the past marketing of the sport. All of the organizations have done well, but there is always room for improvement, as well as need for change to keep up with the "ever changing appetite of the public".

Quote
Dick Morgan
If they were in charge it would raise to the next level.

There are for sure things I would change were I in charge. I don't think that I have all the answers, and I make no gaurantees that my ideas will work.

Quote
Dick Morgan
They go to the Piggly Wiggly and see some guy wearing a pulling shirt and they think all of America is wearing pulling shirts, no its not. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The NTPA tried several different ways over the years to " grow" the sport, they make it sound like they have it all figured out and the NTPA just can't get it right. Well the hard cold facts are the sport is a mid America sport. Its appeal is to rural America.

The epicenter of pulling fandom is, no doubt, always going to be rural, middle America. However, the attitude that it will never be anything else, or will never have any appeal to urban or suburban people is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you don't believe you can gain attention in those areas, you won't market to them, and if you don't market to them, you won't gain attention.

Quote
Dick Morgan
Granted an Unlimited Mod is visually a very impressive vehicle, however 10,000 HP going down the track at 35+ MPH for a distance of less than 350 feet does not look impressive on TV. If a sport doesn't look good on TV it's not going to sell on main street America.

I'll agree. This is partially true. However, with cameras getting better, smaller, and more accessible, new, clearer, more highly defined angles are coming about every day. Also, with no disrespect to anyone, editing footage for non-live broadcasts is important. A single angle, 4-5 second clip of a drag car going 1/8 of a mile on the "street" wouldn't be that interesting to watch, either. However, thanks to multiple camera angles, and edited together clips for a duration longer than the actual pass took to make, along with other factors, Street Outlaws became a phenomenon on television. Again, no disrespect to anyone involved in pulling TV production prior to this, but when a format or technique proves to work, it is wise to use it.

Quote
Dick Morgan
The truth is county fairs ( the backbone of the sport) are shrinking not growing. Granted there many great stand alone events that are doing well however they are promoted by people that love the sport, but when you talk to them most will tell you that they don't see who will step in to carry on when they retire.

I agree, as rural America shrinks, so will the county fairs, and festivals. However, while these venues provided the foundation for pulling, and have been the backbone of pulling for years, perhaps it is time for pulling to grow beyond them. Not that fairs and festivals don't have a place in the pulling world, but that their place needs to change from "backbone" premier event host to more of a secondary event type of role. One of the supposed goals of growing pulling, is to increase the prize money for the competitors. This can only happen if we increase the audience, and that can only happen by either moving to other venues, or the existing venues expanding.

Quote
Dick Morgan
The problem is that some people believe that if someone would just attend one pull they would become a fan for life. They view the sport thru their lens, their rose colored glasses.

I think that most likely everyone feels this way about things they are passionate about. Music fans feel that if everyone could just hear a certain song, album, or artist the way they do, they would fall in love. Stick and ball sport fans feel that if people just understood how amazing, and important their favorite team is, every person would be just as enthralled with them as they are. The reality is, you are never going to make EVERYONE a fan. However, there are large, ever growing segments of the population that haven't even been exposed to the sport.

Quote
Dick Morgan
Rual America is shrinking, not growing, rual America is the fan base of the sport. Soccer mom is not going to relate to the sport. Maybe you wife, mom or sister does, soccer mom does not.

Rural America is the easy target. Rural America already has an appreciation for trucks and tractors. Rural America already appreciates the work it takes to build, and campaign a pulling vehicle. Rural America already appreciates the feats of performance. Granted, pulling may not ever make major inroads into the "soccer mom" category, but with the right marketing, pulling might be able to capture the attention of the "soccer dad" or even their "STEM kids". If we don't try, we will never know.

Quote
Dick Morgan
The sport has lost vehicles, venues and sponsors over the years through no ones fault. It just the ever-changing appetite of the public.

While the sport has lost vehicles in some categories, I'd venture that overall, across all categories of pulling, there are more vehicles now than ever. Venues have come and gone. Sponsors have as well. That truly is never-ending change.

The problem is, continuing to promote and market the sport a certain way, especially because "that's the way we have always done it". Success is not promised when trying new things, however, never changing does promise that you will be left behind.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 04, 2023 01:01AM
While I agree that marketing can improve where is the money to do this coming from? All 3 major organizations are working with limited staff and budgets. Just to wish/want something does not make it happen. And again where is the money coming from to raise purses, build marketing teams and take the sport to the next level. If memory serves me one of the major sponsor/owner has backed away. Only because of the hard work and dedication from a couple of individuals did it rise from the ashes.



Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2023 01:09AM by Dick Morgan.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 04, 2023 01:27AM
Quote
Dick Morgan
While I agree that marketing can improve where is the money to do this coming from? All 3 major organizations are working with limited staff and budgets. Just to wish/want something does not make it happen. And again where is the money coming from to raise purses, build marketing teams and take the sport to the next level. If memory serves me one of the major sponsor/owner has backed away. Only because of the hard work and dedication from a couple of individuals did it rise from the ashes.

I'm not saying this is an overnight fix. Almost every idea I have would take years to implement, and even longer to perfect. However, what is the purpose of blasting all of your advertising at your core audience? You already have that audience as a fan. Spend enough marketing money to be sure that they know when and where the events are, and spend your marketing dollars working to attain new fans.

A quick check of the PPL website shows that Lucas Oil is still a sponsor. While I can't speak to the magnitude of that sponsorship, or how it compares to before of after, the biggest change I see is that Lucas Oil stepped away from an ownership role. Kudos to the folks at PPL who have stepped into that role, and kept the organization going.

On "growing" the sport August 04, 2023 01:43AM
Quote

The epicenter of pulling fandom is, no doubt, always going to be rural, middle America. However, the attitude that it will never be anything else, or will never have any appeal to urban or suburban people is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you don't believe you can gain attention in those areas, you won't market to them, and if you don't market to them, you won't gain attention.

There is a large segment of people who will never enjoy any form of motorsport. There are motorsports fans who think of themselves as "elitist" that will talk your ear off about F1 or their favorite motorsport but would look down their noses at pulling or anything with dirt. However, there are numerous people who would be willing to go to a pull for an evening's entertainment. We all have preferences, and mine would be for pulling to remain a competition and not an exhibition, but that doesn't mean there can't be sizzle with the steak.

Back in the 1980s, pulling had a boom era. Many indoor pulls in large cities. I have a few of the old Pulling Power mags with event coverage. Go you youtube and you can find all sorts of videos of 1980s short track pulls in basketball arenas, or large stadiums in Anaheim, Kingdome, Silverdome, RCA Dome, etc. Even NTPA sanctioned pulls at the then-Tampa Bucs stadium, Arrowhead Stadium, and Bristol Speedway (later done by ATPA). What happened?

Well, good luck getting any large natural grass venue to allow pulling. That paradigm changed. RCA Dome? Gone. Silverdome? Gone. Kingdome? Gone. Astrodome? Condemned. Lots of these buildings are not around. Indy, Houston, and Detroit have new domes but their setup is not as conducive to pulling, and the cost would be much more.
However, ABOBB did raise a good point below regarding venues......


Quote

Granted an Unlimited Mod is visually a very impressive vehicle, however 10,000 HP going down the track at 35+ MPH for a distance of less than 350 feet does not look impressive on TV. If a sport doesn't look good on TV it's not going to sell on main street America.

I'll agree. This is partially true. However, with cameras getting better, smaller, and more accessible, new, clearer, more highly defined angles are coming about every day. Also, with no disrespect to anyone, editing footage for non-live broadcasts is important. A single angle, 4-5 second clip of a drag car going 1/8 of a mile on the "street" wouldn't be that interesting to watch, either. However, thanks to multiple camera angles, and edited together clips for a duration longer than the actual pass took to make, along with other factors, Street Outlaws became a phenomenon on television. Again, no disrespect to anyone involved in pulling TV production prior to this, but when a format or technique proves to work, it is wise to use it
.

I'll be blunt. Camera angles suck. The NTPA live streams have cameras trackside. Many tv broadcasts have crappy angles. Imo, the best camera angle if possible is a view as a fan in the stands would see (go to youtube, type Tomah 1990, 1994, or 1995) Those homemade videos from the stands are at an angle I would prefer to see a pull at to get the full run. If those shots were done on a professional camera and integrated in with the other cameras, that would be a better viewing experience on tv imo.

There should be multiple cameras used, but just like NHRA and NASCAR, there would be an elevated shot that gives a fuller perspective of the run. That is what lots of the broadcasts are missing. I wish a promoter would contruct a camera platform, or if there is a crows nest like at Bowling Green, allow one camera man to use that for a vantage point. Something more elevated than is currently used.

Quote

The truth is county fairs ( the backbone of the sport) are shrinking not growing. Granted there many great stand alone events that are doing well however they are promoted by people that love the sport, but when you talk to them most will tell you that they don't see who will step in to carry on when they retire.

I agree, as rural America shrinks, so will the county fairs, and festivals. However, while these venues provided the foundation for pulling, and have been the backbone of pulling for years, perhaps it is time for pulling to grow beyond them. Not that fairs and festivals don't have a place in the pulling world, but that their place needs to change from "backbone" premier event host to more of a secondary event type of role. One of the supposed goals of growing pulling, is to increase the prize money for the competitors. This can only happen if we increase the audience, and that can only happen by either moving to other venues, or the existing venues expanding.

DING DING DING!! Winner!! This is one of pulling's promotional elephants in the room nobody talks about. Let's say somebody does figure out how to "take pulling to the next level." Great. Where are you going to put all these people? A NASCAR 1.5 mile track has a lengthy area to put high stands. An NHRA drag strip has 1/4 mile, but most national event facilities also have large stands for a starting line view which are actually behind the starting line (they call them Top Eliminator Club seats... with perks including parking and food)

Pulling should be available at a county fair or Podunk Pumpkin Festival, but for the national level, how many more people could Bowling Green get if they even wanted more? Remember, we have about 350' at most places. Everyone would need to be within that 350' margin to have a decent viewing experience. That means larger, higher stands. Ironically, large football stadium have these types of stands... but most would be unwilling or charge too much $ to make pulling there feasible.

To get the kind of crowds people want will require 1) being in the vicinity of a metropolitan area; 2) a venue that could reasonably accommodate the crowds, including infrastructure like parking and traffic flow coming to and leaving the pull; and 3) a venue and community that would be willing to hold the pull; Add to that 4) intelligent marketing for the audience.

Also, speaking of a Top Eliminator Club, why couldn't something like this be tried at more GN/Champions Tour events? I'm not aware of any "regular" big pulling venues that have suites, but if a fan paid more to get premium parking and food like NHRA's TEC, maybe that general concept would be a good investment. BTW, that same concept would also work with potential corporate sponsors.

Quote

While the sport has lost vehicles in some categories, I'd venture that overall, across all categories of pulling, there are more vehicles now than ever. Venues have come and gone. Sponsors have as well. That truly is never-ending change.

Whole other can of worms, but this brings us back to which classes can/should be sanctioned, and at which level (national, regional, etc)? NHRA also has lots of classes, as many as 18 at some events. Most look different. Sure, FC/TAFC, TF/TAD, and in some cases Pro Mod and Top Sportsman look similar, but they have a different experience for the fan when they run.

How would Mr. Suburb care about Pro Stock, 5.0 PS, Limited Pro, Light Pro, Light Limited Pro, Super Farm, Hot Farm, Classic SS, etc? Each class may be worthy and I understand why pullers and orgs decided this variant of single charger was needed..... but to your average county fair fan, it's mostly a distinction without a difference.

Edit- One idea that would help, imo, is to have ONE event winner per class instead of stand alone classes. Ideally, (taking a page from NHRA and most other racing orgs), have qualifying, aka two prelim runs whether Thursday/Friday, or Friday night/Saturday afternoon, then have FINALS Saturday night, or Sunday or whatever. I think actually having an event winner like every other form of motorsports on the planet is superior to having stand alone session winners.

... and in my little mind, when I say "prelim runs" I mean classes with prize money, just pay the big bucks for the Finals winner. Look at Lucas Oil or World of Outlaws Dirt Late Models for an example. They may have a 3 day show when days 1 and 2 pay $5k-$10k to win, then the main race on Saturday pays $50k.. I'm not saying pulling would pay $50k to win a class, just using that as a possible template.



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/2023 02:03AM by The Original Michael.

Re: On "growing" the sport August 04, 2023 02:12AM
I do agree that the sport does poorly at promoting the next event, that it's a points race for a championship, that there are other events that they can attend. That there are certain rules for each class. It's not the circus that just shows up out of nowhere and leaves in the morning to who knows where. Every event should always have open free pits, puller/ fan interaction is one area for fan growth. If I ask the person setting next me at a pull and ask who his favorite NASCAR driver is they can tell about points, next event and who sponsor's the car. Ask about pulling ( the actual event they are at) and I would not be surprised if they didn't understand what class they are watching.



Dick Morgan

www.PULLOFF.com
Independent Pulling News

Re: On "growing" the sport August 04, 2023 02:26AM
Quote
The Original Michael
Quote
ABOBB
The epicenter of pulling fandom is, no doubt, always going to be rural, middle America. However, the attitude that it will never be anything else, or will never have any appeal to urban or suburban people is a self-fulfilling prophesy. If you don't believe you can gain attention in those areas, you won't market to them, and if you don't market to them, you won't gain attention.

There is a large segment of people who will never enjoy any form of motorsport. There are motorsports fans who think of themselves as "elitist" that will talk your ear off about F1 or their favorite motorsport but would look down their noses at pulling or anything with dirt. However, there are numerous people who would be willing to go to a pull for an evening's entertainment. We all have preferences, and mine would be for pulling to remain a competition and not an exhibition, but that doesn't mean there can't be sizzle with the steak.

Nothing, be it truck and tractor pulling, monster trucks, NASCAR, F1, NFL, NBA, MLB or anything else is ever going to have universal appeal. However, the marketing job for pulling is to expose pulling to the broadest spectrum of people possible, and then present a product (event) that does everything possible to appeal to those people in an entertaining way.

Honestly, you won't make everyone completely happy, but you need to do the best to make everyone more happy than not. For example, some purists don't agree with "crossdressed" tractors. Some people like trucks, others don't. Some fans don't like the addition of music, fireworks, or other "time fillers" while for some, those things might be the thing that made the event entertaining enough to come back. The key is to do enough of all the right things, in the right ways, to make the largest amount of people want to come back. If I had a crystal ball, I'd be promoting perfect pulling events already.

Quote
The Original Michael
Back in the 1980s, pulling had a boom era. Many indoor pulls in large cities. I have a few of the old Pulling Power mags with event coverage. Go you youtube and you can find all sorts of videos of 1980s short track pulls in basketball arenas, or large stadiums in Anaheim, Kingdome, Silverdome, RCA Dome, etc. Even NTPA sanctioned pulls at the then-Tampa Bucs stadium, Arrowhead Stadium, and Bristol Speedway (later done by ATPA). What happened?

Well, good luck getting any large natural grass venue to allow pulling. That paradigm changed. RCA Dome? Gone. Silverdome? Gone. Kingdome? Gone. Astrodome? Condemned. Lots of these buildings are not around. Indy, Houston, and Detroit have new domes but their setup is not as conducive to pulling, and the cost would be much more.

I can't speak to what caused pulling to lose those venues. I would venture that among other things, concerts, the crowds that attend them, and the price they are willing to pay for tickets, are a big part of what has driven up the cost to rent these venues.

Quote
The Original Michael
However, ABOBB did raise a good point below regarding venues......

Quote
ABOBB
Quote
Dick Morgan
Granted an Unlimited Mod is visually a very impressive vehicle, however 10,000 HP going down the track at 35+ MPH for a distance of less than 350 feet does not look impressive on TV. If a sport doesn't look good on TV it's not going to sell on main street America.

I'll agree. This is partially true. However, with cameras getting better, smaller, and more accessible, new, clearer, more highly defined angles are coming about every day. Also, with no disrespect to anyone, editing footage for non-live broadcasts is important. A single angle, 4-5 second clip of a drag car going 1/8 of a mile on the "street" wouldn't be that interesting to watch, either. However, thanks to multiple camera angles, and edited together clips for a duration longer than the actual pass took to make, along with other factors, Street Outlaws became a phenomenon on television. Again, no disrespect to anyone involved in pulling TV production prior to this, but when a format or technique proves to work, it is wise to use it
.

I'll be blunt. Camera angles suck. The NTPA live streams have cameras trackside. Many tv broadcasts have crappy angles. Imo, the best camera angle if possible is a view as a fan in the stands would see (go to youtube, type Tomah 1990, 1994, or 1995) Those homemade videos from the stands are at an angle I would prefer to see a pull at to get the full run. If those shots were done on a professional camera and integrated in with the other cameras, that would be a better viewing experience on tv imo.

There should be multiple cameras used, but just like NHRA and NASCAR, there would be an elevated shot that gives a fuller perspective of the run. That is what lots of the broadcasts are missing. I wish a promoter would contruct a camera platform, or if there is a crows nest like at Bowling Green, allow one camera man to use that for a vantage point. Something more elevated than is currently used.

Quote
The Original Michael
Quote
ABOBB
Quote
Dick Morgan
The truth is county fairs ( the backbone of the sport) are shrinking not growing. Granted there many great stand alone events that are doing well however they are promoted by people that love the sport, but when you talk to them most will tell you that they don't see who will step in to carry on when they retire.

I agree, as rural America shrinks, so will the county fairs, and festivals. However, while these venues provided the foundation for pulling, and have been the backbone of pulling for years, perhaps it is time for pulling to grow beyond them. Not that fairs and festivals don't have a place in the pulling world, but that their place needs to change from "backbone" premier event host to more of a secondary event type of role. One of the supposed goals of growing pulling, is to increase the prize money for the competitors. This can only happen if we increase the audience, and that can only happen by either moving to other venues, or the existing venues expanding.

DING DING DING!! Winner!! This is one of pulling's promotional elephants in the room nobody talks about. Let's say somebody does figure out how to "take pulling to the next level." Great. Where are you going to put all these people? A NASCAR 1.5 mile track has a lengthy area to put high stands. An NHRA drag strip has 1/4 mile, but most national event facilities also have large stands for a starting line view which are actually behind the starting line (they call them Top Eliminator Club seats... with perks including parking and food)

Pulling should be available at a county fair or Podunk Pumpkin Festival, but for the national level, how many more people could Bowling Green get if they even wanted more? Remember, we have about 350' at most places. Everyone would need to be within that 350' margin to have a decent viewing experience. That means larger, higher stands. Ironically, large football stadiums, NHRA national event dragstrips, and NASCAR tracks have these types of stands... but most would be unwilling or charge too much $ to make pulling there feasible.

To get the kind of crowds people want will require 1) being in the vicinity of a metropolitan area; 2) a venue that could reasonably accommodate the crowds, including infrastructure like parking and traffic flow coming to and leaving the pull; and 3) a venue and community that would be willing to hold the pull; Add to that 4) intelligent marketing for the audience.

Also, speaking of a Top Eliminator Club, why couldn't something like this be tried at more GN/Champions Tour events? I'm not aware of any "regular" big pulling venues that have suites, but if a fan paid more to get premium parking and food like NHRA's TEC, maybe that general concept would be a good investment. BTW, that same concept would also work with potential corporate sponsors.

I agree with this. Also, I believe we could learn from our European friends about this. Rather than having dedicated seating, or suites, for super avid fans, they use those amenities to host sponsors.
Quote
The Original Michael
Quote
ABOBB
While the sport has lost vehicles in some categories, I'd venture that overall, across all categories of pulling, there are more vehicles now than ever. Venues have come and gone. Sponsors have as well. That truly is never-ending change.

Whole other can of worms, but this brings us back to which classes can/should be sanctioned, and at which level (national, regional, etc)? NHRA also has lots of classes, as many as 18 at some events. Most look different. Sure, FC/TAFC, TF/TAD, and in some cases Pro Mod and Top Sportsman look similar, but they have a different experience for the fan when they run.

How would Mr. Suburb care about Pro Stock, 5.0 PS, Limited Pro, Light Pro, Light Limited Pro, Super Farm, Hot Farm, Classic SS, etc? Each class may be worthy and I understand why pullers and orgs decided this variant of single charger was needed..... but to your average county fair fan, it's mostly a distinction without a difference.

I totally agree with this, I feel that in many ways pulling is oversaturated.

Quote
The Original Michael
Edit- One idea that would help, imo, is to have ONE event winner per class instead of stand alone classes. Ideally, (taking a page from NHRA and most other racing orgs), have qualifying, aka two prelim runs whether Thursday/Friday, or Friday night/Saturday afternoon, then have FINALS Saturday night, or Sunday or whatever. I think actually having an event winner like every other form of motorsports on the planet is superior to having stand alone session winners.

I have some ideas about this... perhaps I will put all of my ideas into a new thread.

Re: On "growing" the sport August 04, 2023 05:22AM
Promotion Promotion Promotion -- the word has got to get out to the masses AND sound like a sensational event that can't be missed - example --- when you here or see on TV or Radio that Monster Jam is coming to a venue near you it's blown up like it's going to be the most massive exciting got to see event that's ever been anywhere close , I remember as a young kid hearing these sort of things on the radio or TV and getting so excited it set my tone for the whole week prior to the event to be sure I had everything done on the farm so I could get loose and go - I understand things have changed alot over the yrs and there's more things that are accessible but a Great promotionable video or radio spot can help raise the curiosity of the public.

Re: On "growing" the sport August 04, 2023 09:31AM
Tractor pulling is on its way

Re: On "growing" the sport August 08, 2023 01:48PM
“In the mix” is exactly right!

Re: On "growing" the sport August 08, 2023 01:51PM
Put promotions in the hands of the right people and it goes far. Put promotion in the hands of the greedy….

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 05, 2023 12:57AM
I'd like to consider myself a traditionalist or purist, but as someone who has been at this for over 30 years I can see how we have boiled the frog with little 'improvements' over the years to where now we have 'funny tractors' in many classes. Most component tractors don't have a single part that came from any factory, more or less the factory of the brand of tractor it is reported to be. They are not cross dressers, they are cyborgs. For the most part we are not even talking about aftermarket parts that are simply made of better materials than the OEM, most are dimensionally significantly different than the factory parts. Replacement blocks and heads don't even have water passages in many cases. Sheetmetal shapes and dimensions have been stretched and massaged for appearance and/or more room under the hood.

It's not just the component classes either, ag rear ends are being gutted and profab or atlas transmissions with billet cases are being fitted 'inside' of the factory housings. At some point we have to accept that we have let the horses not only out of the barn, but in some cases out of the county.

The post evolved into 'growing' the sport. IMHO the first step is a serious overhaul of rules. For example:
- If you have a cast chassis rule but allow the housings to be cut and aftermarket cases put 'inside', stand up and say I've spent a lot of incremental money over time to get my chassis where it is and want to make sure that anyone building for the class spends the same amount to get started. If you want new blood and new tractors, either keep the housings as stock or allow components.
- If you are allowing aftermarket heads and/or blocks that could not function in a farm tractor in the field and require them to be cast, not billet stand up and say I want to be sure that all tractors in the class are powered by 5.9 Cummins, 466 or 619 Deere, or 400 series IH. Once the water jackets are removed the only difference between cast and billet is that someone paid some big $'s for mold tooling. Don't kid yourself into thinking a true factory part can compete with an aftermarket casting, but not a billet piece.

Re: Pro and cons of crossdressing August 05, 2023 02:14AM
I agree. The biggest problem with pulling is its too expensive to get into and it's gotten to the point only big money can even build a tractor. 12k cylinder head, 18k just for a set of tires/wheels the list goes on. The rules ultimately are the demise of pulling in my opinion. Cubic inch rules are too big. When you can't use a oem block, crank, head to start your pulling tractor build then that's your issue. Ya a 3000 hp tractor is cool and all and fun to drive I'm sure but as a puller I'd rather compete against 10 or more tractors for a higher purse. I stopped pulling because it got too expensive as most other ppl have. You want more tractors make more sensible rules.

Author:

Your Email:


Subject:


Spam prevention:
Please, enter the code that you see below in the input field. This is for blocking bots that try to post this form automatically. If the code is hard to read, then just try to guess it right. If you enter the wrong code, a new image is created and you get another chance to enter it right.
Message:
Website Statistics
Global: Topics: 38,584, Posts: 229,618, Members: 3,320.
This forum: Topics: 37,058, Posts: 225,862.

Our newest member Fechtner Racing